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zeroxeal

lets discuss good was to Keep safe

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Everyone is paranoid about getting busted or such, so why don't we start up a list/guide/txt on the best practices and the best ways to quickly destroy incriminating things.

obviously most of us wont want to destroy our hardware though if its that or jail im sure that the hardware would go first.

Lets try and discuss all forms of media something incriminating would be on: cd's dvd's hard drives, tapes, removable storage, pda's, cell phones

once we have a thorough list lets discuss the cleanest ways to dispose of data on said mediums, and possibly catagorize them by least damae to media, to most damage to media.

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good thread. just be careful and do not mention and thereby incriminate yourself or anyone by name.

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i hear ya stank, but im interested in helping with this...

email nyx_mech@yahoo.com

aim nNyxn

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good thread. just be careful and do not mention and thereby incriminate yourself or anyone by name.

of course, my goal with this was to hopefully think up or bring to light good ways for people in general to rappidly and readily destory data, for whatever reason they may deem fit.

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For this to really work, can we please exclude things like thermite and other acids. I want to see some real ways to destroy hardware quickly and efficiently.

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The trick to being good at any sort of thing that might be considered illegal is to make sure you leave no evidence where it is avoidable. good burglars do not use gloves simply because they touch nothing they don't intend to steal. good virus writers don't leave clues in the source of their virii, etc.

The three simple methods for evidence elimination are

Burn it. (works for your organics)

Break it. (works for your metallics)

Hide it. (works for everything else, but remember to hide the materials you used for steps one and two)

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Has anyone thought about using electromagnetism to erase the hard disk quickly?

I can only assume that you would use a coil and one hell of alot of electrical current to do it though <_<

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Has anyone thought about using electromagnetism to erase the hard disk quickly?

I /believe/ some TLA (DoD maybe?) did a study on this and concluded that in order to get the data completely cleaned, you needed to use an obscene amount magnetism. Enough that in tests, the platters of the disks were warped from it.

(Yikes! :ninja: )

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If you just magnetize the discs it is the same as writing either a bunch of ones or zeros over it. All the data is still "underneath" this layer of ones or zeros. The data can still be read off with the right equipment. Magnetizing isn't a very good method.

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I have been in places that make everything magnetic on my dashboard stick to the window, but my lappy still works fine. Electromagnetics is not really the way to go. I think that the ony way, and I know you said no fire or acid, but the only way to completely remove hard drive evidence is to burn it to ash. An official DoD wipe of material that is non top secret is to write zeros 7 times. I think I read somewhere that hard drives can store data from up to 12 writes in the magnetic domains of the disk, so I guess you could try to write garbage(alternating 1's and 0's not just 0's) to the disk say 20 times.

160 GB * 20 = 3.2 TB . Most benchmarks I've seen put the write time for an uncached file around 35 MB/s for similar drives. So thats like 91000 seconds, or around 25 hours.

That's not taking into account the program needed to write chunks to the drive, so that would probably slow it down. It'd be neet to write something for this... in asm or something.

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An official DoD wipe of material that is non top secret is to write zeros 7 times.

I've seen this stated a lot but never saw a source. I finally met a guy who worked for the DoD two years ago and he told me some interesting stuff. The DoD used to have some kind of wiping scheme that took usually took up at least half a day. Eventually they decided that the standard for all drives that have any form of classified data on it was to grind it up to dust and then dump the dust into a vat of acid. It may have been procedure for just his project though.

Just my two cents about that.

Anyway if you're really paranoid you should get one of those hydraulic presses from Terminator and leave all of your stuff running in that. When the shit hits the fan crush it flat while it's running. Mount all of your drives vertically so they don't get pressed flat. Now that's some serious overkill. :P

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yeah, magnets dont work like we want them to. ive used magnets from speakers (which are powerful) and they didnt really do anything. data was recoverable. and yes, i agree this is a good topic because i have been warned twice about copyright infringement for files that i do not have, but if anything was to happen and they wanted to search my computer, i would need a fast way to get rid of my other .... stuff.

edit: what about a microwave idea from that movie "The Core"????

Edited by riscphree
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A magnetron.

I'm not sure if any of you ever played a game called Uplink (which lamely simulated "hacking" but it was cool) but you were a "hacker" who was employed by a company and they gave you a remote proxy you connected to. One of the options to improve it was to attach an explosive device to the proxy's location so when the feds came inside, it blew the computer up.

(each proxy was in a random location in different houses for each agent).

Edited by Omni-Max
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my solution to getting rid of any data, including recipts or bills with my credit card info or phone number, is to simply tear the thing into a bunch of little scraps, and then throw some of the scraps into one trash can, and the rest in another one. From my own attempts at trashing, I know that almost on one would ever put them back together. Espically if the trash cans belong to different gropus in some way, like one is actually a recycling bin and the other a city dumpster. This method is easy and casaual enough that I practice it daily.

It might be a little harder with hard drives and cd's, but there are ways to get them ripped apart too.

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yeah, magnets dont work like we want them to. ive used magnets from speakers (which are powerful) and they didnt really do anything. data was recoverable. and yes, i agree this is a good topic because i have been warned twice about copyright infringement for files that i do not have, but if anything was to happen and they wanted to search my computer, i would need a fast way to get rid of my other .... stuff.

edit: what about a microwave idea from that movie "The Core"????

Copyrights ...Damn Copyright ... OK I see a good thing on them, but I also see the restriction, and a form of anti-information on them! Why can't information be free to use/view/debate...??? HackerZ and PhreakerZ have no problem doing it! You don't see us going out and copyrighting everything we write about ... granted ... :grr:

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Well I do know you can destory CD's and DVD's by giving them a few seconds in the microwave. Hard drives however are a pain, Im actually rather sure that the DoD standered for decomission of a hardrive, (last I had heard) was 14 writes of 0's to the harddrive, at that point you would need a electron microscope to even consider getting anything off.

I wonder if we were to make some for of hardware, that interfaced with the drives, and told it to write the 0's, it would most likely allow for a much faster proccess.

Has anyone used an sd card (the things that store your pictures in digital cameras and can be used with pdas and such) as a harddrive. I know it can be done and the newer cards are 4 gig, those could potentially be a fix if the data on them was rapidly eraseable, which it might just be.

Working in ram drives might be something else, obviously the data will be gone as soon as you turn your computer off(or when the ram looses power), but you could do it just for times in which you are commiting acts that shouldnt be commited, and use usb storage or cd's to store any important or interesting data recovered during said event.

Edited by zeroxeal
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As far as camera memory goes, it is in fact quite durable, at least physically: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/02/me...eaking_project/

It is much more secure to write random data to the hard drive instead of just all 0's or 1's. All of one is like taking a picture and darkening it a lot, the picture is still there it is just harder to see. On the other hand if you randomly write 0's and 1's it makes it significantly harder to recover.

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Note about cassete tape: When you use a cassete tape erasing device to clear the tape, it does not actually remove data. It just scrambles the magnetic particles. Forensic audio expert can recover such data. One of the biggest projects now is trying to recover the nixon tapes. So far, they know what recorder was used, and which eraser was used.

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i havnt had the need to destroy a hdd before but if you open it becides opening the airproof seal and damaging clusters microwaving it would ( or so it should) work. but from what i hear or read in the 2600 mag microwaving doenst work as well as you would want it to, but this is what ive read havn't done any further reading on the subject as i said the need hasnt arisen.

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Haha that is one way to deal with the evidence Zeigenfus, but we can't forget for true security you need the redneck jacket and fur hat.

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for magnatism to wipe a disk or a drive, it has to be moving or the media has to be moving, preferably under a strong alternating field with a focused gause, ie, a large electromagnet with a large nail point pointed at the media, as the media spins under it, can fairly effectively scramble the contents.. the closer the better,

for the few customers i have been entrusted to clear records/destroy the drive for we took the drives apart, folded the platters, and then proceded to hit them with a bulk tape eraser, (they clatter annoyingly on the bottom of the electromagnet ....

i did show off thermite to my friends, using an old 5 1/4 full sized drive, with a flowerpot of thermite ontop of it, as it flowed out the hole in the pot, onto the top of the drive, it melted a hile and the top 3 platters, then filled the drive cavity with burnt media and slag..

for cd's my recomendation wiould be find rough concrete or pavement, and put it label side down, the place a bootheel on it and rake it left right front and back untill the silver is gone and the plastic under it is scrached horribly.. brake it in half and throw the haves away in seporate bins.. or put it in a shredder, most shredders will grind up cd's or floppeis minus the shutter ok..

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Working in ram drives might be something else, obviously the data will be gone as soon as you turn your computer off(or when the ram looses power), but you could do it just for times in which you are commiting acts that shouldnt be commited, and use usb storage or cd's to store any important or interesting data recovered during said event.

Problem with ram is at some point the data is going to be stored in virtual memory or cached in some other means on your hard-drive. Then the data is there and the hard-drive needs to be destroyed.

As for writing over it enough times, it would probably take a few days or more to write over it enough times that "they"(you know, NSA, CIA, FBI, whoever "they are, you never really know) can't get ahold of it. Not something you can do spur of the moment.

The best way is probably to physically destroy the drive. By physically I mean down to just a pile of dust and then scattering the dust or droping it in a vat of acid or something like that. I'm not a professional though, I may be wrong.

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Working in ram drives might be something else, obviously the data will be gone as soon as you turn your computer off(or when the ram looses power), but you could do it just for times in which you are commiting acts that shouldnt be commited, and use usb storage or cd's to store any important or interesting data recovered during said event.

Problem with ram is at some point the data is going to be stored in virtual memory or cached in some other means on your hard-drive. Then the data is there and the hard-drive needs to be destroyed.

As for writing over it enough times, it would probably take a few days or more to write over it enough times that "they"(you know, NSA, CIA, FBI, whoever "they are, you never really know) can't get ahold of it. Not something you can do spur of the moment.

The best way is probably to physically destroy the drive. By physically I mean down to just a pile of dust and then scattering the dust or droping it in a vat of acid or something like that. I'm not a professional though, I may be wrong.

Ahh true, however in windows NT, there was a way to acutally create hard disks using excess ram, there are ways to do it in linux as well. Actually if I remember correctly there is a type of exploting that involves working in memory and cpu cycles only so as to not leave any physical evidance on a hard disk, im sure it could be done(would cost a bit to actually have enough ram to do anything).

Any one have any ideas off the beaten path, seemingly so far, unless we have a vat of acid, a valcano next to our house, or something that can destory the physical medium and rather quickly, we would be screwed if say someone kicked our door in and stormed our house.

anyone here an electrical enginner or a chip designer? we could make some form of a storage device using the storage techknowledgy in usb drives camera memory ... etc

except if could have mabey a battery/capacitor coupled with a small fuel cell (yea yea sounds out there but they will be making hybrid laptop batteries with them in a few years) and have the data be stored by maintaing a extremely low voltage, and say a surge of energy of the stored data or withdrawling all energy could potentially easily destory said data? its not really to far fetched of an idea however it would require some serious hardware hacking.

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To be really secure just do it the way the us launch code systems work

Have all of your whole harddrive encrypted with a few 700 meg OTP's (one time pad), that are loaded off a cd-r's when it boots. If the feds come a knocking, destroy the cd's and reboot.

For a more realistic approach

just encrypt your harddrive with a 10 meg passphrase, that is stored on a removable media (smart card, cd-r, zipdisk), and loaded into a ram disk at boot time, if the disk is destroyed then it'll take them a few billion years to decrypt your files

It seems to be the case though that the feds only come show up on your door step when they've traced it back to you already, so I think more effort should be made to delete log files, use encrypted backdoors and such nonsense.

The feds should never come a-knocking if you

don't show off

use proxies

use encryption

don't write viruses that make cnn

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