jfalcon

Telemarketers == Asshats...

23 posts in this topic

So recently I've had a new problem.

One of those "Auto Warranty" telemarketing companies that use "Spoofed" caller id just happen to use one of my DID. Now that line gets slammed with calls from many pissed off people which sucks because now that line is marked for death by people en-masse on the internet.

Separately, I get calls on my cell phone about once every 3 weeks from a spoofed line regarding this "Auto Warranty" crap. Last time they called, I went through their 'message' just to talk to a live agent (who speaks in a perfect american accent) and asked for their address. Of course her reply was, "We don't give out that information. <click>".

Anyone doing any research on these asshats? How can I track down the originator of the calls (or at least their VSP) so I can follow it up with a can of legal whoopass? One suggestion so far has been forwarding my cell to a 800-WATS/MCI line so I can get their true ANI. Any other suggestions?

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What state are you in? Many states have tough anti-telemarketer laws. Also, there is some federal law that covers this. If you're willing to sue, you could collect some damages.

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It's pissing me off too. They're using VoIP + prerecorded messages to call the numbers in my NPA en masse. Each of my numbers gets a call at least once every two days from this kind of crap. I'll look forward to read what the replies to your questions are.

Edited by Seal
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It's pissing me off too. They're using VoIP + prerecorded messages to call the numbers in my NPA en masse. Each of my numbers gets a call at least once every two days from this kind of crap. I'll look forward to read what the replies to your questions are.

if you figure out their originating number maybe some of us could spam the spammer?

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I am sure you have evidence of who's doing this. Telemarkers, especially Auto dealers have a history of being shady. I would go to small claims court and file a motion against them. If it's truly as bad as you say.

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You can't "sue" someone if you have no means of identifying them! That's the problem jfalcon is facing and he's asking for any ideas on how to identify these asshats. They are hiding behind the spoof number, which just happens to be his DID so people call and yell at him! Doh! Without the spoofer calling in to jfalcon (which he probably won't) there's not a lot that can be done. I'd give the telco a call and explain the situation, but I wouldn't expect much from them either. Bleh - very damn frustrating.

Just to clairify:

1. These are "car warrenty" guys are super shady. They are scammers.

2. They don't want to give you any information related to them because they know they'll end up in jail. They just want your identity/credit card number.

3. They call thousands of people spoofing the number. In this case, jfalcon is the "lucky" guy.

4. Jfalcon gets hunders of pissed off people calling him. Jfalcon's DID also get's listed on various web sites as a "scammers phone number".

5. There are various tricks jfalcon could do _if_ the spoofer where to call him. However, they are likely not to call him.

6. Jfalcon would love to hunt down and beat the shit out of these guy - the question is, how do you locate them? :)

- Beave

Edited by Beave
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Unfortunately, his odds aren't too good. He's going to need the cooperation of the phone company to use their logs for identification. They aren't going to cooperate just by asking: he will have to put pressure on them. I see a few ways of doing this. The first is to try to get them to do something nicely, then imply threats of lawsuits. I would consult a decent lawyer first to figure out what strategy might work, and then align my phone threats with that, so their legal department will think its significant.

This might not work out. The next possibility is suing the phone company for negligence or something. The idea is to get ahold of their logs in the Discovery process. Even if you don't win against the phone company, you will have the scammers' previous phone numbers and identifying information. Then, you can proceed to take action against them. Using the local media in your area is a nice idea, although you might have to deal with some publicity for a while. We used local media effectively to cause a well-connected [corrupt] government official to loose his job. He publicly resigned, but everyone knew better. Media attacks the groups image, and they sometimes act out of fear for what financial losses it could cause.

In any cause, you should hit them on several fronts and use pressure to force them to give you the records. Then, you should use to records to pursue law enforcement action or maybe private investigation to get more info. To be honest, these are the only solutions I can think of if they won't call you. You are indeed in a tough spot here. I'd probably just change my number and be more careful about who gets my information.

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You can't "sue" someone if you have no means of identifying them!

You actually can sue someone even if you have no idea who they are.

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Well last night I did pull the trigger on getting a true 800-WATS line with ANI. Since my cell phone gets a reasonably small amount of inbound calls, I'm going to forward my line to it then relay it back on a separate number. I'll run it for a couple months and see what happens. If anything, this might be a good time for me to migrate my friends and people from one number to another (area code change).

As Beave said, yes I do get mad calls on that DID when the spammers use it (enough to tie up all of our inbound voice PRI channels). And of course thanks to websites like whocalled.us and the like, that number is blacklisted. There are some legal repercussions (libel, denial of service) I'm exploring but first I need to build the case and "follow the yellow brick road".

There are plenty of companies whom are already pursuing this matter. Like Verizon and AT&T since it's costing them money in handling these problems. But since they associated one of my DID's, this is where we would need to pursue our own action.

I've got engineers internally saying that this (caller id spoofing) should be illegal. Personally I don't feel that way as there are already too many laws on the books and there are legitimate uses for the technology. Also, it's the phone company's problem... not congress'. But when someone is harmed by it: legally, fiscally or physically/psychologically, then it might not be such a bad idea.

That said, please keep your ideas coming... It's interesting to see what ideas are coming up.

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You can't "sue" someone if you have no means of identifying them!

You actually can sue someone even if you have no idea who they are.

Is that your suggestion? Start legal proceedings against unknown persons? Sure, you can probably do it..... They aren't likely to stop there scam because of it :)

Edited by Beave
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You can't "sue" someone if you have no means of identifying them!

You actually can sue someone even if you have no idea who they are.

Is that your suggestion? Start legal proceedings against unknown persons? Sure, you can probably do it..... They aren't likely to stop there scam because of it :)

By doing so, if you get lucky, you might have the benefit of a judge issuing a subpeona or some shit that would uncover who they were.

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I made a post about this months ago and there was never really any other information. I was googling around back then and found other people complaining but not much came up other than that. Using the 800 number forwarding sounds like a good idea, but would be be admissible in a lawsuit or as proof?

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Wonder if any heat could be brought on by suing your phone provider as an accessory to fraud?

They have the clout to stop this if they gave a damn.

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I made a post about this months ago and there was never really any other information. I was googling around back then and found other people complaining but not much came up other than that. Using the 800 number forwarding sounds like a good idea, but would be be admissible in a lawsuit or as proof?

The court could subpoena my provider to give unbias records. Then I would have to prove that the same company that's calling my cell phone is also spoofing my DID line. Currently the calls that come in on my cell have other numbers... but it's the same message that everyone gets.

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Wonder if any heat could be brought on by suing your phone provider as an accessory to fraud?

They have the clout to stop this if they gave a damn.

My cell provider (Verizon) already has a lawsuit going against them. Not likely.

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Jfalcon & Beave - since it's public information now. You can contact AT&T's fraud/ telecom harassment guy. Louis Carpenter PPS. Since its past my 1 year mark when he initially gave me his business card, and the fact that he was crazy enough to commit illegal interrogation techniques and have my previous manager countersign a written report which is illegal in terms of Human Resources Law practices.

Also- he really needs quality productive work, rather than chasing honest employees such as ME that brought the company their largest wireless deal in 5 states, over 500% of the quota for the 5+ member team I managed and helped to developed.

Louis Carpenter PPS

Telephone Harassment/Fraud Investigator

+1.847.248.2418

lc2394@att.com

AT&T Inc. 2000 W Att Center Dr

Hoffman Estates, IL 60192-5005

USA

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Yay.. Got a call from one of these ass-hats today. 203-649-1217. Anyways, I chatted with them for a while and told them I'd be "interested in extending my warrenty for my 94 Toyota 4 running" (yes - I'm making shit up). Unfortunately, I have no way to pay! Oh darn. The wife has the credit card and I'm at the office and don't have access to a check book. Dang it.

So - they are going to call me back between 6-7PM EST (when I'm home). Isn't that nice of them? To bad my cell phone will be forward to my off 800 number (AT&T) :)

I'll post results as I get 'em.

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I'm going to play it safe and neither encourage nor discourage grabbing an ANI through call forwarding, due to the ambiguity of trap and trace laws. However, I will comment on the subject.

If the company is spoofing a telephone number to your cell phone, especially if using VoIP, then if you receive a type of ANI, it's not going to get you anywhere further. Caller-ID is derived from the Calling Party Number (CPN), which is a SS7 term I think we're all familiar with at this point. The only hope would be if you could receive the Charge Number (CN), since that is sometimes a completely different telephone number. However, the CN would show your own telephone number, since it is the number paying for the forwarded call, and therefore the number being charged. So the point is, if you get a telephone number on Caller-ID, that's likely the only number you're going to get. Having the telemarketing company call a completely different number, such as a toll-free (WATS) number, would be a better bet. Plus the FCC makes it clear that your ANI will be received by the called party when calling such numbers, meaning you don't take any legal risks.

While I have not read the laws on telemarketing calls in a while, I do recall cell phones being prohibited. I've received my share of telemarketing calls on an old cell phone I used to have. Often times I simply told them to take me off their calling lists, which sometimes solves the problem.

It's important to remember that telemarketers, especially with cell phone numbers, receive this contact information from consumer data. That's why you should never give your information when signing up for anything, or at least provide as little as possible in certain circumstances. The same should apply when ordering delivery/takeout, using a discount card at a store, purchasing products at Radioshack, ordering catalogs, books, and magazines, and many other examples I can't think of at the moment. But I must rant further: There are a lot of situations you'll come across where your personal information isn't offered, but rather obtained without your (conscious) consent. An example is when you call a telephone number that receives ANI/Caller-ID, and they store that data along with anything else you give them. In fact, there are a ton of these toll-free numbers that, when called from a cell phone specifically, will tell you that you can sign up for a "new directory assistance service", telling you to press any key on your touch tone cell phone for more information. Pressing any key, even if it's accidental, will send you a text message, and start a spam process with your telephone number! I could give more examples but I think I've made it clear how easy it is to screw yourself. And remember that this collected data goes beyond annoying telemarketing calls and other spam: It takes away your privacy.

Edited by Royal
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Royal, this current salvo of telemarketing calls isn't from consumer data. They're just going up a list of numbers. NXX-NPA-0001. NXX-NPA-0002. And so forth.

I manage five telephone numbers. One landline, three mobile, and one VoIP. Two of the mobiles are newly obtained numbers (within a few months), which were not allocated to anyone else before hand. Those two mobile numbers are unlisted, have never been given out, and are manned by GSM modems. They still get these warranty telemarketing calls. And if I look at the call logs, it's always one after the other (hours apart.) My other cell and landline also gets these calls. As does everyone in my office (all different carriers.)

Before this round of automated telemarketing which began a few weeks ago, I never used to get calls. I find it frustrating that my cellphone minutes are wasted with that garbage, and that I get these calls at least twice a day. It's hard to distinguish them from real numbers, because most spoof area codes that are familiar.

An article on the fraud:

http://www.thestar.com/Wheels/article/587593

The company for the fraud:

ndwwarranty.com

National Dealers Warranty Inc., a marketing company operating out of St. Louis, Mo.

Also known as: Canadian Auto Warranty Services (In Canada)

Also known as: World Wide Warranties Inc.

Public contact info: (From their website)

339 Midrivers Mall Dr.

Saint Peters, MO, 63376

Tel: 1-800-436-3185

WHOIS Contact Info:

Administrative Contact , Technical Contact :

National Dealers Warranty

travis.summers@charterinternet.com

339 Mid Rivers Mall Dr.

Saint Peters, MO 63376

Phone: 314-960-6832 (Works)

314 Number Info:

Type: Cell Phone

Provider: New Cingular Wireless Pcs,

LlcLocation: Kirkwood, MO

Other numbers:

Same person does the voicemail message for both numbers.

Rene Tista, National Dealers Warranty

949-309-3751 (Works)

Devin Bolferian (?), National Dealers Warranty

949-309-3753 (Works)

Other Domains by Same Dude:

NDWWARRANTY.com

UWARRANTYW.COM

ECAWS.COM

Other alleged Domains by Same Dude:

consumerdirectwarranty.com

aaautowarranty.com

gawarranty.com

cdwsnow.com

generalwarrantyservices.com

Another forum that explores this very company:

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showpo...amp;postcount=8

http://saizai.livejournal.com/896354.html

The 314 area phone number is legit. I called it tonight, it rung, and then after a while I got the voicemail for Travis Summers of NDW. I wonder if Travis Summers is a real person.

Edited by Seal
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Yeah - these guys are scum bags. You really can't get off there "list", they don't honor the DNC list and typically scam older people into buying shit they don't need. They spoof the caller ID and even state that they will not supply any call back number.

To follow up, my plan worked fine. They of course, call back at about 6:55 PM to make there sale. Here's the information:

949-475-9500

This is "Auto One Warranty Specialist". If you call it, you get there normal PBX with a nice directory listing. The owner of the company is a ex-felon named "David Todd". The BBB gives this company a nice big fat "F". This obviously isnt the only "warranty scam's" going round, but this is the one that called me yesterday. Some more interesting reading.....

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly..._a_crook_an.php

With the number of complaints, I find it hard to believe these guys are still in operation.

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Thanks for clearing that up Seal, it's surprising that they did sequential dialing to non-POTS numbers. All telemarketing calls I've ever received on a cell phone were obtained from consumer/spam data, often times being from the person who formerly had the telephone number.

I read through that article you posted; seems that not all of their business practices can legally be considered a scam. However calling a cell phone, VoIP line, or number on the Do Not Call list should still be against the law. Therefore taking legal action must be an effective option for at least those reasons alone. You'd need to have a good argument against their deceptive advertising and telemarketing as well. There are other companies that use such deception (*cough*Comcast*cough*) and get away with it.

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Telemarketing is a marketing policy that involves concerning with customers over the telephone or through web-based video conferencing. Good telemarketing lists help to make maximum results out of a marketing campaign. If you think you received a fraudulent call. Then you can put your number on the national “do not call” registry to stop most telemarketing calls. You can also report violations of “do not call” rights through the website scamdetector.com.

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