jripper

My room setup

90 posts in this topic

Yes, but there is a big difference between high-voltage power lines and household appliances.

You're absolutely right. One is a carrier of electricity for mass use, and the other is user of electricity for the individual.

However when it comes to their EM fields the risk is somewhat similar due to the comparative distances. EM fields drop off rapidly from the source. The electricians are not right near lines most of the time, just from being within 1000 feet of one is a cancer risk. (This is why schools and neighborhoods near high voltage lines tend to have cancer clusters.) Yet the owner of this room is right near the appliances. So although the strength is different the distances even things out.

Any EM field over 1.5 milligauss poses a significant cancer risk. This is why people should avoid electric cars, as electric motors are one of the biggest producers of EMFs, and riding in an electric or hybrid car - being inches away from that motor - everyday for hours is not something I would want myself or my family doing. I predict that as these cars get more popular we're going to see a noticeable spike in cancer again. (I say "again" because the cancer rates already more than doubled when electricity became widespread to begin with)

Edited by aegion7
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so your saying because my computer is less than a foot and a half away from my knee, i'm at risk for cancer? :P

i wonder if we can make a list of 10 things that DON'T cause cancer.

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so your saying because my computer is less than a foot and a half away from my knee, i'm at risk for cancer? :P

i wonder if we can make a list of 10 things that DON'T cause cancer.

OK, I'll take a stab at that...

  1. Death
  2. Chemotherapy
  3. Shark attacks
  4. ...

OK so it's really hard to come up with 10 things... The fact is, being alive causes cancer. There's not much we can do about it other than eliminate or reduce known risk factors. One of those factors is, in fact, EM radiation... Of course most studies agree that you need magnetic fields in excess of 0.4 ┬ÁT (read: mirco-Tesla), and those same studies showed that 43% of homes in which these levels of EM radiation were found were situated beneath or above high voltage lines of 132kV and above. That said, LCD panels do throw off far less EM radiation than CRTs, however I doubt the combined power of every CRT device you could power on your one puny residential line could possibly create that kind of flux density. Think about it, do the TV salesmen at Frys get cancer from the wall o' TVs?

It was a funny joke for a minute, but people started talking about how much radiation these things give off and cancer risks etc. Just use some common sense people and stop letting these stupid memes spread.

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Yes, but there is a big difference between high-voltage power lines and household appliances.

You're absolutely right. One is a carrier of electricity for mass use, and the other is user of electricity for the individual.

However when it comes to their EM fields the risk is somewhat similar due to the comparative distances. EM fields drop off rapidly from the source. The electricians are not right near lines most of the time, just from being within 1000 feet of one is a cancer risk. (This is why schools and neighborhoods near high voltage lines tend to have cancer clusters.) Yet the owner of this room is right near the appliances. So although the strength is different the distances even things out.

Any EM field over 1.5 milligauss poses a significant cancer risk. This is why people should avoid electric cars, as electric motors are one of the biggest producers of EMFs, and riding in an electric or hybrid car - being inches away from that motor - everyday for hours is not something I would want myself or my family doing. I predict that as these cars get more popular we're going to see a noticeable spike in cancer again. (I say "again" because the cancer rates already more than doubled when electricity became widespread to begin with)

That's very interesting considering the earth's electromagnetic field is roughly 0.5 gauss (read: 500 milligauss), a small iron magnet is about 100 gauss (read 100,000 milligauss) and that nice little neodymium in each of my hard drives is about 2,000 gauss (read: 2,000,000 gauss).

so my refrigerator magnets are apparently a significant source of cancer-causing levels of EM radiation?

Do a little research, please?

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Most, if not all home appliances are shielded, so the EM emissions are very low and don't pose any threat. (yes, being shielded and having EM emissions reduced is necessary to be approved for production)

I'd also like aegion7 to cite a valid source that would confirm his home appliance EM radiation cancer theories.

Edited by WhatChout
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This is why people should avoid electric cars, as electric motors are one of the biggest producers of EMFs, and riding in an electric or hybrid car

I'm relatively certain Honda's new hybrids using Hydrogen cells is never going to go in to production with the off chance of the motor giving people cancer. I'm pretty sure they have to run it through a safety check or two before it's rolled out the factory.

Top 5 things, not yet proven, but I'm sure that cause cancer:

1 - Any playing of ABBA gives me ear cancer

2 - Reading people wanting to "hack in to a hotmail account" gives me frustration cancer

3 - Paris Hilton gives me whore cancer

4 - Un-cited sources gives me doubt cancer

5 - Cinammon. I hate it and I'm sure that's what cancer actually taste like.

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1 - Any playing of ABBA gives me ear cancer

5 - Cinammon. I hate it and I'm sure that's what cancer actually taste like.

:roll: (this smiley isn't rolling his eyes, he's looking up at the most glorious smashing of abba ever. cinnamon as well.)

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That's very interesting considering the earth's electromagnetic field is roughly 0.5 gauss (read: 500 milligauss), a small iron magnet is about 100 gauss (read 100,000 milligauss) and that nice little neodymium in each of my hard drives is about 2,000 gauss (read: 2,000,000 gauss).

so my refrigerator magnets are apparently a significant source of cancer-causing levels of EM radiation?

Do a little research, please?

To answer your question magnetic fields and electromagnetic fields are different. A magnet can produce an electric charge but not an EM field under normal circumstances.

We've evolved to live in the earths distinct electromagnetic field, with it's own particular wavelength, for billions of years. We have not evolved to live in the kinds of EM fields produced by modern electronics.

For anyone doubting the potency or danger of EMFs try this - if you go under high voltage power lines and point a florescent light bulb at it it will light up on it's own. Also, there are several stories of people growing gardens in the sunny areas underneath high voltage powerlines, and always the vegetables are malformed and have tumors.

Try this additional experiment if you still don't believe me, build a dog kennel under high voltage lines and see how many of the dogs get cancer within a year. Most of them will.

I'm not some some conspiracy theorist or luddite who hates technology. It's just that with EMFs this is one thing where there is a major cover up and I like for the truth to be known about it.

Edited by aegion7
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so your saying because my computer is less than a foot and a half away from my knee, i'm at risk for cancer? :P

i wonder if we can make a list of 10 things that DON'T cause cancer.

No, I'm saying if you have several computers, monitors, TVs, and other devices in a cramped little room and you're sitting in the center of it for hours a day then you're at risk for cancer.

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We've evolved to live in the earths distinct electromagnetic field, with it's own particular wavelength, for billions of years. We have not evolved to live in the kinds of EM fields produced by modern electronics.

Right. Because much lower emissions are somehow more dangerous. Care to show us a scientific paper?

For anyone doubting the potency or danger of EMFs try this - if you go under high voltage power lines and point a florescent light bulb at it it will light up on it's own.

How does that prove any danger? Unless you count cool glowing-without-being-plugged-in effect as danger...

Also, there are several stories of people growing gardens in the sunny areas underneath high voltage powerlines, and always the vegetables are malformed and have tumors.

Those are anecdotes. We are asking for evidence.

Try this additional experiment if you still don't believe me, build a dog kennel under high voltage lines and see how many of the dogs get cancer within a year. Most of them will.

You know what? I won't. Most people reading this won't. And actually it doesn't matter, because they don't have to, because you didn't provide any sufficient evidence to support this hypothesis (because it's far away from theory). First provide us with evidence that this might happen and then we'll talk about experiments.

I'm not some some conspiracy theorist or luddite who hates technology. It's just that with EMFs this is one thing where there is a major cover up and I like for the truth to be known about it.

Why are you so afraid to shed any light on it then? Why not give us any links?

I will tell you why. It's because even a few minutes of research proves you wrong.

In 1996, the Stevens Report was released by the National Academy of Sciences. Based on the current research of EMF produced from power lines, the report concluded that there was no evidence that showed exposure to EMF from power lines presented a human health hazard. Another report was released on July 3, 1997 by the National Cancer Institute (NCI). The report published in the New England Journal of Medicine, "Residential Exposure to Magnetic Fields and Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia in Children" [21] was a result of a seven year epidemiological investigation. The study investigated 638 children with acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL) and 620 controls and concluded that their study

provides little evidence that living in homes characterized by high measured time-weighted average magnetic-field levels or by the highest wire-code category increases the risk of ALL in children.

The NCI study was corroborated by a 1999 Canadian epidemiological study of leukemia in children. As a result of the NCI's findings, the US Department of Energy disbanded the EMF Research and Public Information Dissemination (RAPID) Program citing that its services were no longer needed.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnet...tion_and_health

No, I'm saying if you have several computers, monitors, TVs, and other devices in a cramped little room and you're sitting in the center of it for hours a day then you're at risk for cancer.

No, you're not, QED.

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I'd also like aegion7 to cite a valid source that would confirm his home appliance EM radiation cancer theories.

If you want a source go to your local library. Go to the section on toxins/pollution and there should be several books about it.

I was reading one book a while ago that did case studies for houses near power lines. Some of the stories were very sad. Like this one 18 year old girl who was a star basketball player and got a brain tumor that left her blind. She was part of a cancer cluster caused by EM exposure.

I'm not paranoid, I'm very scientific minded and objective. I've always been fascinated by the EM spectrum and the things you can do with it, one day I started looking into EM fields more and found out about the health risks and cover ups. From everything I've read and have also seen from personal experience I can say with 100% certainty that they are very dangerous and there is a cover up.

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Right. Because much lower emissions are somehow more dangerous. Care to show us a scientific paper?

Please pay more attention. It's nothing to do with lower, the earths EM field is a different wavelength.

It's just like we've evolved to live in this particular atmosphere. It's got oxygen but also a lot of other gases in various amounts. If you changed this a little, and say added sulpher, then we would not have evolved for it and it would damage our health. The same thing with the Earths EM field.

First provide us with evidence that this might happen and then we'll talk about experiments.

Ok, some guy already did it. He had a dog kennel under the lines and all the dogs got cancer. As was documented in this video:

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/72799/1351067

Edited by aegion7
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Please pay more attention. It's nothing to do with lower, the earths EM field is a different wavelength.

It's just like we've evolved to live in this particular atmosphere. It's got oxygen but also a lot of other gases in various amounts. If you changed this a little, and say added sulpher, then we would not have evolved for it and it would damage our health. The same thing with the Earths EM field.

Care to quote any scientific paper? Because crappy analogies won't cut it.

Ok, some guy already did it. He had a dog kennel under the lines and all the dogs got cancer. As was documented in this video:

Funny how you like twisting words.

Not all the dogs died from cancer. Eleven of ALL his dogs had cancer. Aside from the fact that we don't know how many dogs he had, there is no direct cancer-EMF link shown by any studies.

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Funny how you like twisting words.

Not all the dogs died from cancer. Eleven of ALL his dogs had cancer. Aside from the fact that we don't know how many dogs he had,

Ok, not all. Just eleven. But I showed this to you because you said that you wouldn't try the experiment yourself without evidence that it might happen. Although this video does not 100% prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt, I think it provides more than enough evidence for you to do an experiment on your own.

There is a ton of misinformation on this topic, because as I said, the ultility companies do not want to have to spend trillions of dollars moving, burying, and shielding these lines.

If you want a source go to your library, they should have several books on this issue, all meticulously documented and referencing their sources.

Did you notice how in the video the people who were trying to defend the power lines were using the phrase "the jury is still out"? That's a phrase you hear a lot whenever well-funded and powerful organizations are trying to cover up some inconvenient scientific fact. You hear it with evolution and global warming too.

Edited by aegion7
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Ok, not all. Just eleven. But I showed this to you because you said that you wouldn't try the experiment yourself without evidence that it might happen. Although this video does not 100% prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt, I think it provides more than enough evidence for you to do an experiment on your own.

Hardly. I asked for scientific evidence. Not anecdotes. A clear message from aliens would be a sign that aliens exist. Cows giving birth to freak calfs is not, no matter how many moving lights you videotape.

There is a ton of misinformation on this topic, because as I said, the ultility companies do not want to have to spend trillions of dollars moving, burying, and shielding these lines.

Or maybe they just prefer to stick to actual research?

If you want a source go to your library, they should have several books on this issue, all meticulously documented and referencing their sources.

I don't think we understand each other, so I'll rephrase my previous statements.

I don't want to go to the library.

I won't go to the library.

I'm not the one that cares about proving your point - you are. So cite me a valid source, give me concrete evidence and then we'll talk.

Did you notice how in the video the people who were trying to defend the power lines were using the phrase "the jury is still out"? That's a phrase you hear a lot whenever well-funded and powerful organizations are trying to cover up some inconvenient scientific fact. You hear it with evolution and global warming too.

Evolution is a proven scientific fact, global warming is happening right now as the Earth's climate warms up after the last ice age. None of those have anything to do with actual evidence - meaning research conducted by scientists - that I posted.

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I don't want to go to the library.

I won't go to the library.

I'm not the one that cares about proving your point - you are. So cite me a valid source, give me concrete evidence and then we'll talk.

I'm telling you, if you want concrete evidence go to the library. I don't feel like researching stuff online for you and getting you real studies as opposed to the ones sponsored by the utility companies. I already found the video for you and you just disregarded it so that's all I'm going to do.

I don't care that much about proving my point. I came into this discussion under the assumption that you had a hacker mindset and that you were genuinely curious and objective about learning. That's why I was having this conversation with you.

However, you apparently just want to win an online argument for your ego and aren't really interested in learning. Hence your absolute refusal to go to a library or seek out anything that would prove you wrong.

Edited by aegion7
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Ok, I can't take this much longer.

An EM Field comprises two distinct fields. An electric field caused by ANY charged particle in a static state. A magnetic field occurs when these non-moving electric fields begin to move. It gets extremely technical past that and I don't have the patience to explain. Just do a touch of research by yourself. The math is easy and once you understand it visualizing the workings are easy. Any way:

Yes! EM fields can cause cancer. (Which is true of EVERYTHING in excess) However, the chances of contracting cancer from ANY EM field is minuscule. The body itself produces a small EM field. And if you did do as much research as you claim you should realize this. EM radiation is a natural force. In fact it was one of the only 4 forces in the known universe. (The 4, as you know, are: the weak force, the strong force, EM, and Gravity).

Your ungodly EM field is a temporary magnetic created by the flow of electrons, generally, through a metallic object. If you want to know, you create an extremely small but existent EMP when you turn off your crap.

Give it a rest or as Watchout says: provide some sources to backup your claims.

P.S. Evolution and Global Warming are real, get over it.

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For anyone doubting the potency or danger of EMFs try this - if you go under high voltage power lines and point a florescent light bulb at it it will light up on it's own.

How does that prove any danger? Unless you count cool glowing-without-being-plugged-in effect as danger...

Oh fuck, I was putting CFLs next to my plasma ball to make it light them up just for the glowing-without-being-plugged-in effect.

Guess I've got the cancerz.

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P.S. Evolution and Global Warming are real, get over it.

I never said evolution and global warming weren't real. Can you read? I said the way organizations try to deny risks of EM fields is similar to how they deny global warming and evolution. Using the same rhetoric "the jury is still out".

Edited by aegion7
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For anyone doubting the potency or danger of EMFs try this - if you go under high voltage power lines and point a florescent light bulb at it it will light up on it's own.

How does that prove any danger? Unless you count cool glowing-without-being-plugged-in effect as danger...

Oh fuck, I was putting CFLs next to my plasma ball to make it light them up just for the glowing-without-being-plugged-in effect.

Guess I've got the cancerz.

I love how you guys just focused on that and ignored the dog kennel.

But of course "only eleven" of his dogs got cancer so that's not evidence!

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For anyone doubting the potency or danger of EMFs try this - if you go under high voltage power lines and point a florescent light bulb at it it will light up on it's own.

How does that prove any danger? Unless you count cool glowing-without-being-plugged-in effect as danger...

Oh fuck, I was putting CFLs next to my plasma ball to make it light them up just for the glowing-without-being-plugged-in effect.

Guess I've got the cancerz.

I love how you guys just focused on that and ignored the dog kennel.

But of course "only eleven" of his dogs got cancer so that's not evidence!

Anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence. "My dogs got sick" is anecdotal evidence. You say you are scientifically oriented and yet you haven't been able to supply a link to a single peer reviewed article even though you claim to have done lots of research on the subject.

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P.S. Evolution and Global Warming are real, get over it.

I never said evolution and global warming weren't real. Can you read? I said the way organizations try to deny risks of EM fields is similar to how they deny global warming and evolution. Using the same rhetoric "the jury is still out".

Yes, I read perfectly. That statement was to everyone in general not just you.

Btw. According to you science should work this way.

I took a piss on an ant-hill in my backyard. Half the ants died. Well obviously pissing is a cause of death. Everyone be ware and Hold IT IN!

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Anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence. "My dogs got sick" is anecdotal evidence. You say you are scientifically oriented and yet you haven't been able to supply a link to a single peer reviewed article even though you claim to have done lots of research on the subject.

Whatever kind of evidence you consider it, a man running a dog kennel under powerlines, that you have footage of the kennel right next to the powerlines so you know this isn't made up, saying that 11 of his dogs got cancer has to count for something.

Again, I only linked to the video because WhatChout said he would not do ANY experiments on his own about it unless I gave him some form of evidence that it could happen. I thought the video counted as some form of evidence. That's just me.

Like I said I don't feel like doing online research for you. I just don't feel like using google right now and going through all the links. Especially when you are going to disregard everything I post because this has become about you proving to yourself and others that you're right.

Again, you can find several books about the danger of EMF and the cover-up by utility companies in your public library, they all have meticulous list of references in the back. That's assuming, of course, that you actually want to find out about this and your objective isn't just to be automatically right and boost your ego.

Edited by aegion7
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Anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence. "My dogs got sick" is anecdotal evidence. You say you are scientifically oriented and yet you haven't been able to supply a link to a single peer reviewed article even though you claim to have done lots of research on the subject.

Whatever kind of evidence you consider it, a man running a dog kennel under powerlines, that you have footage of the kennel right next to the powerlines so you know this isn't made up, saying that 11 of his dogs got cancer has to count for something.

It doesn't have to count for anything. In order for it to be valid another group of dogs would have needed to be kept in similar conditions (same diet, amount of exercise, etc...) away from power lines and to show a statistically significant difference in the rate of cancer.

Like I said I don't feel like doing online research for you. I just don't feel like using google right now and going through all the links. Especially when you are going to disregard everything I post because this has become about you proving to yourself and others that you're right.

I haven't made any claims about whether EM fields are harmful or not, all I have said is that you have provided no scientific evidence, so your assumption that I would disregard scientific evidence because I have already made up my mind doesn't really make sense.

Again, you can find several books about the danger of EMF and the cover-up by utility companies in your public library, they all have meticulous list of references in the back. That's assuming, of course, that you actually want to find out about this and your objective isn't just to be automatically right and boost your ego.

I'm not interested in books, I'm interested in peer reviewed journal articles. Anyone can publish a book.

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