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zoe

VoIP call over analog switching?

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Hey,

I'll try my best to explain this.

I remember calling up Alaska and Canada with various voIP services-- Skype, FreeCall, Gizmo, etc.-- about a year ago. With certain voIP providers, I'd end up hearing a lot of extra carrier noise while calling remote areas of Alaska and Canada... A considerable amount of buzzing and humming. Interesting stuff to listen to!

Here is where it gets interesting, though. After the called party would hang up, I'd drop to this LOUD buzzing sound. Then I would hear some of the most bizarre network sounds I have ever heard in my life. Loud mechanic THUDS, hissing, and buzzing that pulsed at the speed of what sounded like (foreign?) ringing tones.VERY trippy stuff!

And I'm not talking about Livingood here. These are calls to anywhere in Alaska, even invalid numbers. Which tells me it has to be something on the voIP carrier's end.

I would also commonly hear streams of DTMF, possibly MF (it's hard to make out the tones in all that static, but the frequencies sounded a little off to be DTMF), and... What I thought was most interesting... Conversations. I kid you not. Random conversations. Sometimes two people, sometimes three. I don't think the other party could ever hear me though, except for one bizarre incident.

This got me thinking... How, and where on Earth, are these voIP calls being routed to? My guess is internationally. So far I've only gotten this to work with calls out to Alaska and Canada, overseas from the US. This definitely sounds like some kind of analog system it's routing over. Maybe a series of satellites?

Edited by zoe
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VoIP calls into the PSTN usually aren't VoIP all the way through. Eventually they terminate somewhere where rates / space / etc. are favorable. From there they could get carried as digital TDM, analog, or whatever paths happen to be available.

It sounds like it's getting dropped off at an exchange before going on some really long copper pairs, and you're getting crosstalk between the pairs, etc.

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VoIP calls into the PSTN usually aren't VoIP all the way through. Eventually they terminate somewhere where rates / space / etc. are favorable. From there they could get carried as digital TDM, analog, or whatever paths happen to be available.

It sounds like it's getting dropped off at an exchange before going on some really long copper pairs, and you're getting crosstalk between the pairs, etc.

If you heard this, I really don't think you'd think of this as cross talk. It's very loud, and very distinct.

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Calls to rural points in Alaska frequently travel over radio carrier, often supervised using 2600 Hz. with MF digit addressing.

Search for "Livengood" here for more detail.

df99

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Yeah, I'm very aware of Livingood! Thesr are things I only hear when calling via voIP though.

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What numbers where you dialing? What area? I'd be interested to try what you're trying and see if my results are the same as yours.

And it might not be crosstalk. It might be interferance (however you spell that). Like say an unshielded pair was routed through a machine-heavy facility, like a manufacturing facility. The interferance from the machines could be quite random, and could generate whatever you're hearing.

Whatever, though, drop some numbers, if you could.

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Get an older version of Skype that doesn't block invalid numbers client-side. Try dialing numbers like 907-000-0000, 907-999-9999, 907-555-5555, etc. Try a few times if you get any client-side errors.

I'm starting to think that the carrier Skype uses to place calls overseas (specifically out to the Alaska and Canada region) has some weird radio system (satellite?) it's routing over.

edit: Another interesting find: dialing 999-999-9999 with older clients leaves with you with a loud echo. Weird.

If anyone could make any recordings, that would be great!

Edited by zoe
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So can you reproduce it, zoe? Does it always do the same thing?

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No interesting tones but I dialed "19072289999 and got a dialtone...

That's just an extender. No correlation between that and voip.

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Hey,

I'll try my best to explain this.

I remember calling up Alaska and Canada with various voIP services-- Skype, FreeCall, Gizmo, etc.-- about a year ago. With certain voIP providers, I'd end up hearing a lot of extra carrier noise while calling remote areas of Alaska and Canada... A considerable amount of buzzing and humming. Interesting stuff to listen to!

Here is where it gets interesting, though. After the called party would hang up, I'd drop to this LOUD buzzing sound. Then I would hear some of the most bizarre network sounds I have ever heard in my life. Loud mechanic THUDS, hissing, and buzzing that pulsed at the speed of what sounded like (foreign?) ringing tones.VERY trippy stuff!

And I'm not talking about Livingood here. These are calls to anywhere in Alaska, even invalid numbers. Which tells me it has to be something on the voIP carrier's end.

I would also commonly hear streams of DTMF, possibly MF (it's hard to make out the tones in all that static, but the frequencies sounded a little off to be DTMF), and... What I thought was most interesting... Conversations. I kid you not. Random conversations. Sometimes two people, sometimes three. I don't think the other party could ever hear me though, except for one bizarre incident.

This got me thinking... How, and where on Earth, are these voIP calls being routed to? My guess is internationally. So far I've only gotten this to work with calls out to Alaska and Canada, overseas from the US. This definitely sounds like some kind of analog system it's routing over. Maybe a series of satellites?

Hey zoe,

Ive been doing some phreaking up in alaska and the upper provinces (I'm from alberta) and have found the same stuff you have, but its much clearer for me as I use cable phone or copperline. The "off" DTMF you hear is actually interoffice CCITT MF, the predicessor to DTMF signalling. Albeit its some sort of NX-1 trunks, as I get higher up the world the radio trunks kick in which have an even stranger sound.

I pretty much learned how to trunk up there like evan doorbell and now I have fun stacking trunks and making alot of racket on the lines. the lines for overseas may be radio trunks like up in alaska, it could be sattelites...

The Canadian trunks however are switched by canadian equipment and I havent messed with it lately.

Listen to some of the tracks on the below site, specifically "Network sounds of the 70's" Part 1 & 2 by Evan Doorbell.

This may help you understand how alaska works and you may hear familiar sounds.

Mark Bernay's Phone Trips

Edited by Phreaker Meekrab
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Alaska shares all the number plans in relation to what the test numbers are.

Even though different telephone companies.

example

last four

8888

1116

1118

1112

find the others yourself.

AK is really great to scan because of that. Once you find something, you found the rest on someone elses switch.

fears they say sometimes

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Hey zoe,

Ive been doing some phreaking up in alaska and the upper provinces (I'm from alberta) and have found the same stuff you have, but its much clearer for me as I use cable phone or copperline. The "off" DTMF you hear is actually interoffice CCITT MF, the predicessor to DTMF signalling. Albeit its some sort of NX-1 trunks, as I get higher up the world the radio trunks kick in which have an even stranger sound.

I pretty much learned how to trunk up there like evan doorbell and now I have fun stacking trunks and making alot of racket on the lines. the lines for overseas may be radio trunks like up in alaska, it could be sattelites...

The Canadian trunks however are switched by canadian equipment and I havent messed with it lately.

Listen to some of the tracks on the below site, specifically "Network sounds of the 70's" Part 1 & 2 by Evan Doorbell.

This may help you understand how alaska works and you may hear familiar sounds.

Uhh, you're aware that there's no such thing as an analog switch in the Alaskan PSTN, right? If you're stacking now, you're doing it with extenders; there's still a good few trunks out there that use MF, and even use relays in one way or another, but they're all T-Carrier trunks that convey supervision digitally unless you're calling Livengood. Not only would you have to by some miracle, get the switch to reset the trunk, you'd have to get it to place you on one of the outgoing trunks to an earth center or other tandem-ish contraption without dialing anything. I really think you're lying about this, but I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and give you a chance to prove yourself.

Now according to your autobiography , you started out with phones in 1999, when you were probably either seven or eight according to your birthdate. Given that at that time, the network was largely T-carrier, the remaining analog carrier circuits within the United States were primarily operated by people like the Northern Minnesota Telephone Company, who did an excellent job of caring for their trunks, I doubt you would've gotten very far. Even out on the microwave trunks to Livengood, which are maintained rarely , it's fairly difficult to get crosstalk to bleed through intentionally (believe me, I've tried). So what trunks have you "made a lot of racket on the lines" with? As for the trunks up to Alaska from the rest of the world, if you were familiar with the network, you'd know for a fact that they actually go over digital microwave links from Canada, or fiber the Northwestern US. Even in 1999, the Alaskan tandems that switched calls from the mainland US were fully digital, and if nothing else, used digital microwave. I'm betting the fiber was there, though -- it certainly was back in 2003 .

So anyway, I invite you, good sirs, to prove me wrong :) .

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Hey zoe,

Ive been doing some phreaking up in alaska and the upper provinces (I'm from alberta) and have found the same stuff you have, but its much clearer for me as I use cable phone or copperline. The "off" DTMF you hear is actually interoffice CCITT MF, the predicessor to DTMF signalling. Albeit its some sort of NX-1 trunks, as I get higher up the world the radio trunks kick in which have an even stranger sound.

I pretty much learned how to trunk up there like evan doorbell and now I have fun stacking trunks and making alot of racket on the lines. the lines for overseas may be radio trunks like up in alaska, it could be sattelites...

The Canadian trunks however are switched by canadian equipment and I havent messed with it lately.

Listen to some of the tracks on the below site, specifically "Network sounds of the 70's" Part 1 & 2 by Evan Doorbell.

This may help you understand how alaska works and you may hear familiar sounds.

Uhh, you're aware that there's no such thing as an analog switch in the Alaskan PSTN, right? If you're stacking now, you're doing it with extenders; there's still a good few trunks out there that use MF, and even use relays in one way or another, but they're all T-Carrier trunks that convey supervision digitally unless you're calling Livengood. Not only would you have to by some miracle, get the switch to reset the trunk, you'd have to get it to place you on one of the outgoing trunks to an earth center or other tandem-ish contraption without dialing anything. I really think you're lying about this, but I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and give you a chance to prove yourself.

Now according to your autobiography , you started out with phones in 1999, when you were probably either seven or eight according to your birthdate. Given that at that time, the network was largely T-carrier, the remaining analog carrier circuits within the United States were primarily operated by people like the Northern Minnesota Telephone Company, who did an excellent job of caring for their trunks, I doubt you would've gotten very far. Even out on the microwave trunks to Livengood, which are maintained rarely , it's fairly difficult to get crosstalk to bleed through intentionally (believe me, I've tried). So what trunks have you "made a lot of racket on the lines" with? As for the trunks up to Alaska from the rest of the world, if you were familiar with the network, you'd know for a fact that they actually go over digital microwave links from Canada, or fiber the Northwestern US. Even in 1999, the Alaskan tandems that switched calls from the mainland US were fully digital, and if nothing else, used digital microwave. I'm betting the fiber was there, though -- it certainly was back in 2003 .

So anyway, I invite you, good sirs, to prove me wrong :) .

New Autobiography

Well I was stacking something, and it was crunchy like zoe's even from a landline, because you are right, theres no analog...

Could It Be UHF/VHF?

I was probably doing Livengood...

^_^

Edited by Phreaker Meekrab
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Well I was stacking something

Care to tell me what you used to stack and how? I don't think any switch in it's right mind would give you access to it's outgoing toll trunks just for the hell of it when you're MFing. Having been well seasoned with Redcom manuals, I can tell you that if you were stacking Livengood, you must've found about sixteen extenders on the same switch; MDXes aren't capable of giving you a dialtone via software like a DMS; someone would have to use bridging equipment to get two loops together, and obviously, when a hardware-based extender is busy, you can't magically plop another connection onto it to dial out with.

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Well I was stacking something

Care to tell me what you used to stack and how? I don't think any switch in it's right mind would give you access to it's outgoing toll trunks just for the hell of it when you're MFing. Having been well seasoned with Redcom manuals, I can tell you that if you were stacking Livengood, you must've found about sixteen extenders on the same switch; MDXes aren't capable of giving you a dialtone via software like a DMS; someone would have to use bridging equipment to get two loops together, and obviously, when a hardware-based extender is busy, you can't magically plop another connection onto it to dial out with.

I used 2600 cheeps, 2100 cheeps, MFing and DTMF.

I was just going Cheep Cheep Cheep and it went Click Click Click or Kerchunk X3 depending on how many random nubbers I dialed, just random combos of stuff I learned from Evan Doorbell.

I got a couple jane barbies up there but I think I was just dialing out to other states/provinces.

yup and it was all 1-907-XXX-XXXX

Edited by Phreaker Meekrab
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I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say, but you're not making yourself sound too bright right now. Firstly, as I mentioned before, no switch in it's right mind will simply let you onto it's outgoing trunks, and Livengood is no exception. In Redcom equipment, the dial code tables that determine how the call is supposed to be switched are divided by line class -- depending on where you're coming in from (a payphone, POTS line, or in this case, an incoming trunk, etc), and unless it's been explicitly told to do so, it's not going to let you anywhere near something outside of it's local switching network. Even if a switchman in a drunken stupor one night decided to let anybody with a bluebox place calls out from the switch, I can guarantee you it wouldn't have lasted very long at all. Anyway, we can verify this later, but it'll probably give you a reorder after about seven digits or so of a number.

Secondly, 2100 hz is the tone that high speed modems (well, sort of. 9600 baud or faster) answer with. You mean to tell me that the carrier system was responding to this, even though this would do wonders to interfere with any data communications going over the microwave carrier system? And yes, this is something that was part of the backbone of the telephone network back in the day. I'm assuming you might've been thinking of either 2280 or 2400 hz. 2280 hz was a tone that wasn't even used in the US network in the first place. If you're finding it anywhere in the 21st century, it's probably some place like Gabon. As for 2400, that's something Livengood, or any other carrier system that uses R1 signalling uses, either. It's used mostly on C5 trunks that go over international waters.

I was just going Cheep Cheep Cheep and it went Click Click Click or Kerchunk X3 depending on how many random nubbers I dialed, just random combos of stuff I learned from Evan Doorbell.

Don't you mean what you learned from Evan Doorbell's recordings? I'm sure somebody here can verify whether or not Evan Doorbell taught an eight year old how to bluebox in 1999. Also, supervision doesn't just go nuts when you dial a normal telephone number. Remember, this is a telephone network, not a McDonalds Playplace. If any telephone company employee saw the supervision going insane, they would've been down to the CO faster then you could say omghax, and ready to slap the sass out of that MDX. Let's be reasonable, though; in Alaska, as Spiderpig pointed out, most telephone companies share their numbering plans, and United is no exception. If you can come up with where the supervision test is located on just about every switch in Alaska, I'll find it a tad easier to believe what you're saying. Even so, this doesn't add up to your claim. Remember -- this is just one telephone number that's pretty much the same throughout the whole state, not a bunch of random numbers. One last thing, would you be kind enough to point out where there's been even one call made up to Alaska in Evan's tapes? It'd really do a lot for your credibility.

Anyway, let me be the first to welcome you to Binrev, where we don't appreciate it when you wave your dick around.

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I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say, but you're not making yourself sound too bright right now. Firstly, as I mentioned before, no switch in it's right mind will simply let you onto it's outgoing trunks, and Livengood is no exception. In Redcom equipment, the dial code tables that determine how the call is supposed to be switched are divided by line class -- depending on where you're coming in from (a payphone, POTS line, or in this case, an incoming trunk, etc), and unless it's been explicitly told to do so, it's not going to let you anywhere near something outside of it's local switching network. Even if a switchman in a drunken stupor one night decided to let anybody with a bluebox place calls out from the switch, I can guarantee you it wouldn't have lasted very long at all. Anyway, we can verify this later, but it'll probably give you a reorder after about seven digits or so of a number.

Secondly, 2100 hz is the tone that high speed modems (well, sort of. 9600 baud or faster) answer with. You mean to tell me that the carrier system was responding to this, even though this would do wonders to interfere with any data communications going over the microwave carrier system? And yes, this is something that was part of the backbone of the telephone network back in the day. I'm assuming you might've been thinking of either 2280 or 2400 hz. 2280 hz was a tone that wasn't even used in the US network in the first place. If you're finding it anywhere in the 21st century, it's probably some place like Gabon. As for 2400, that's something Livengood, or any other carrier system that uses R1 signalling uses, either. It's used mostly on C5 trunks that go over international waters.

I was just going Cheep Cheep Cheep and it went Click Click Click or Kerchunk X3 depending on how many random nubbers I dialed, just random combos of stuff I learned from Evan Doorbell.

Don't you mean what you learned from Evan Doorbell's recordings? I'm sure somebody here can verify whether or not Evan Doorbell taught an eight year old how to bluebox in 1999. Also, supervision doesn't just go nuts when you dial a normal telephone number. Remember, this is a telephone network, not a McDonalds Playplace. If any telephone company employee saw the supervision going insane, they would've been down to the CO faster then you could say omghax, and ready to slap the sass out of that MDX. Let's be reasonable, though; in Alaska, as Spiderpig pointed out, most telephone companies share their numbering plans, and United is no exception. If you can come up with where the supervision test is located on just about every switch in Alaska, I'll find it a tad easier to believe what you're saying. Even so, this doesn't add up to your claim. Remember -- this is just one telephone number that's pretty much the same throughout the whole state, not a bunch of random numbers. One last thing, would you be kind enough to point out where there's been even one call made up to Alaska in Evan's tapes? It'd really do a lot for your credibility.

Anyway, let me be the first to welcome you to Binrev, where we don't appreciate it when you wave your dick around.

Im sorry for not making sence, as I was up late last night and If I don't get sleep I sometimes lose my train of thought, I was half asleep while dialing and must have not been aware of what I was doing.

...

Edited by Phreaker Meekrab
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This is not a defense of Phreaker Meekrab.

I have noticed that when I have failed to pass MF within the local dialplan for that switch that it will connect me to a Jane Barbie error recording when i am dialing through VoIP. This isn't happening at Livengood's end though, its something that is happening on PSTN interconnect. I can not duplicate it over a PSTN line when dialing Livengood. I could see how this might be misconstrued as making Livengood dial out, but it is not.

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This is not a defense of Phreaker Meekrab.

I have noticed that when I have failed to pass MF within the local dialplan for that switch that it will connect me to a Jane Barbie error recording when i am dialing through VoIP. This isn't happening at Livengood's end though, its something that is happening on PSTN interconnect. I can not duplicate it over a PSTN line when dialing Livengood. I could see how this might be misconstrued as making Livengood dial out, but it is not.

I think that's why I got Jane barbie's on my end too...

thankyou for clearing that up nix

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Anyway, let me be the first to welcome you to Binrev, where we don't appreciate it when you wave your dick around.

lol :lol:

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