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King Tiger

Can I run this distro?

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Subversus. You keep saying that linux blows, but you don't say why.

I'm curious. I'm a big linux user too, so before I switch over to the bsd side I need some valid reasons.

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Subversus. You keep saying that linux blows, but you don't say why.

I'm curious. I'm a big linux user too, so before I switch over to the bsd side I need some valid reasons.

A big part of the issue here is that if you can't see it, and don't feel the same way, I don't know why you want me to explain it to you. Linux and BSD are complicated operating systems and both have their perks and both have their downs. I prefer the way BSD manages packages. I prefer the way BSD handles the issue of upgrades. In Linux, there are very often huge issues regarding libs. This is fairly complicated and I don't really care to explain it here. I think the best way for me to call it in abstraction is: BSD is a solid, grounded operating system. Once you've got the base system in place, packages and applications can be added later. Linux, since really its just a kernel, is basically a lot of shit thrown into a distro and released. Various Linuxes have different ways of dealing with stuff. Some are better than others. In general, I dislike the linux approach. A lot of issues arise from the overall lack of a strong base system. Of course, Linux can do cool things as a result. But for me, I prefer the way BSD does things. If you are really interested, I suggest reading some docs. freebsd.org and dragonflybsd.org both have interesting information.

A note to those who would flame me: My description is an abstraction, and is based on my experience and a lot of reading material. I have spent a lot of time hammering away at both Linux and BSD. Since this is an abstraction, if you want to dissagree with me, feel free, but examples you provide should be on the same scope as my description, ie. an abstraction. I'm not interested in kids raising their hands to point out little elements of bsd or linux that don't follow what I said. I have three exams and a project due tomorrow, so I'm not promising timely or in depth responses to any combative points, but I will read it. Tiocsti is of the same view as me, and his knowledge far surpasses mine. Perhaps if any of you have questions, you should seek him out. He is grumpy though, so be nice.

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CLI is SO 1986. The real reason it exists is because most linux developers don't know anything about interface design. Come to think of it, neither does Microsoft. Apple on the other hand... All they have going for them is UI

I disagree on this - people think that the CLI is out of date because they are so use to point and click GUI desktops!

The real power of a computer comes into play when you start using the CLI - in my experience, you can do a damn sight more, a damn sight faster off a shell than you can ever dream of performing from a GUI. The only thing GUIs are good for is making people lazy.

Sorry, I'm not flaming you over this, but seriously, if you want to understand computers, learn the command line - you can only benefit from it and have nothing to lose.

It doesn't take that long to learn to be honest, if you read the MAN and INFO pages, and use a decent beginners guide. - I started out with the ABS (advanced bash scripting guide), and to be fair, that taught me just about everything I needed to know. the rest I picked up from the MAN pages and asking questions from people I thought might know more about it than I did.

You ask any sys-admin worth their salt which they prefer, GUI or CLI and about 65-70% of them (if not higher) will say CLI simply because of the power it provides

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Go ahead and flame, I'm learning.

The reason CLI is so much more powerful is because UI sucks. A test for a good UI is that a total n00b can use it for the first time, and do almost everything. Think about the Ipod. Did anyone have to explain how to use it? Is an instruction manual necessary? no. You just grab it, and you "know" what to do. That's good UI. How about bumper cars? a four year old can hop into one and drive it around. That's good UI. A mouse is good, because it takes no training to use a mouse. It's obvious that hand movement is translated into cursor movement. That's where obviousness stops however.

I was actually being sarcastic about the CLI. CLI is better because you can go instantly to something, IF you know what you are doing. If you don't (me) your're screwed.

I refuse to be stuck with Windoze. Right now I'm pretty much a point and click n00b but I refuse to stay that way.

I'm probably going to go with PC-BSD and if that dosn't work out, a lightweight Linux distro.

Stderr stop pwning me. I need this computer for schoolwork you 3v31 h4X0$

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Umm, you've got the whole multiple post thing going on again. It's not my fault your

AV is freaking out on you. Hurry up and get pcbsd installed.

The whole point and click era is not a good thing for computing. Why do you think so

many viruses actually work? Uneducated users. Point and click users.

A good GUI is useful for surfing the internet or whatever you need to do, but when it

comes to maintaining a system or systems, you're gonna head straight for CLI. It's

easier and faster than clicking through a whole bunch of menus. In order to run a CLI

program, you have to actually read, instead of just clicking buttons. So, in order to get

anything done, you'll end up learning in the process.

Start tinkering, if you have questions, just ask.

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CentOS is designed to run on servers (alternative to RHEL?), so it won't be a good desktop distro.
But if you don't want to use the Comand line, stay away from *nix because it really isn't what you want.

I agree.

disagree. once I have eveything set up there is not real need to use the CLI, but there are programs that I use that need the CLI, and moving files and other thing are just easier to me with the CLI. a good friend of my has one of my computers running linux, and she never sees the CLI and she just loves it.

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Dude, she's got a PC not a Mac firstly.

You should have no problem running Linux on that box King Tiger, my first linux was ran on a much slower box than that and I had UI but fluxbox allthough it ran on with an older version of KDE but I prefered configuring fluxbox which is so flexible. There was also blackbox and openbox but they are pretty much the same.

@subversus: BSD is good I actually used only BSD on my boxes when I had a webhosting company but that doesn't mean its better than Linux, both are flexible and can be managed and configured to serve you in any purpose. I am not going to flame you because this is just a matter of taste but what I will say is that you see "linuxes" as you said as distros but Linux is only one, after that comes the bigger and important distros that all the other distros that have been showing up are based on, but any one of this big distros is powerfull, you can install slackware, gentoo, debian with only the minimum which is the base system and build from that everything you need, that is what I always do when installing Linux, not because I think that the install cd gives me lot of crap but gives me stuff I just do not use so I do not want taking up space, for a begginer i recommend the install cd because all those apps can be fascinating if you are just entering the Linux world + you get everything ready for you.

V

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Hey do you know how to stop people from haxoring my XP box?

CLI is SO 1986. The real reason it exists is because most linux developers don't know anything about interface design. Come to think of it, neither does Microsoft. Apple on the other hand... All they have going for them is UI

ahahahahahahaha

no idea if that was a joke...but it better have been.

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disagree. once I have eveything set up there is not real need to use the CLI, but there are programs that I use that need the CLI, and moving files and other thing are just easier to me with the CLI. a good friend of my has one of my computers running linux, and she never sees the CLI and she just loves it.

You must be fairly slow then. Navigation especially I can do much faster in the commandline. The terminal is generally faster to refresh with the directories and files, and I can move around in them much quicker. It's faster to open vim from the commandline when I'm already there then going over to my applications menu or double clicking on the icon for the file especially for load time. Once you know what you are doing in the terminal you'll realize how much you are missing out not using it.

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I'm going to stick with the Open Source developers don't make good UI's remark. Why should they bother to create a amazing UI for something like nmap? Who uses nmap? n00bs? It is assumed that people using thier software already know what they are doing, so they don't bother to design a good UI. Look at the install instructions for some flavors of linux. It's freaking gibberish to me. This is me trying to find a paper on my USB drive -->

media:/
(not a command, you suck)
/media:/sda1
(not a command, you suck)
media ls
(etc.)
ls media:/
ls dev
dev
man
what man page do you want? 1-386
(What? How am I supposed to know what manual page? If I knew, I wouldn't need it.)
dev ls
ls /dev
(Finally get a response)
ls /dev/sda1
(Finally get to my crap)

Or I could open Konqueror, hit removable media, and bang, there it is. In color. Anyone feel my pain?

Yes, yes, I know I need to study. Seriously: Anyone know of a good book I could get?

If this post dosn't go up properly, it's because *someone* needs to stop sniffing my computer, and rerouting my traffic. And could you please stop trying to hijack my computer? It's getting old, and it's annoying the binrev crew.

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Well, this depends on how "1337" you are. If you know your way around Unix (even a little), I'd go for slackware. It is optimized for old machines (i486) and has loads of software for every computer (lightweight window managers etc.).

Arch Linux is another good choice for old computers. Unlike slackware, it's package manager has repo's a dependency checks.

ABSOLUTELY DO NOT USE FEDORA CORE OR ANOTHER BLOATED RPM DISTRO, THEY TEND TO SHIP WITH BULKY SOFTWARE THAT YOUR HARDWARE WILL STRUGGLE WITH (e.g. Gnome and all sorts of daemons that you dont need)!!!!

Before you do ANYTHING, learn Bash. Install Cygwin on your Windows box and learn your way around the CLI, its not that hard to get the basics, it just looks intimidating. At some point or another you will need this, especially for hacking of any kind. Distro's like slackware are difficult, and have a steep learning curve, however, a steep learning curve means you get to the top quicker (and it forces you to learn). Dont be afraid, just dive straight in, thats what I did :)

EDIT:

... I hope to god you were kidding ...

Hey do you know how to stop people from haxoring my XP box?

CLI is SO 1986. The real reason it exists is because most linux developers don't know anything about interface design. Come to think of it, neither does Microsoft. Apple on the other hand... All they have going for them is UI

... CAUTION: ANGRY RANT ...

Jesus! Thats wrong in SO many ways! First of all, Apple does have a CLI, it runs on Darwin (a single server BSD that runs on GNU Mach) it has a full Unix environment. The only reason M$ doesnt have a CLI is its designed for dips who think CLIs' are "SO 1986". CLI's are superior to a GUI in every way for any task greater than checking your email. I dont even plug my mouse in anymore (RATPOISON!). Linux is developed primarily by hackers, not companies. When I write software, I write assuming the user has an IQ above 50 (clearly you dont meet this requirement). GUI design is a crutch for the USER not the developer. LEARN BASH AND QUIT WHINING!!!! Why should developer waste their time adding pretty frontends when they could do some much more important, like.. oh, fix bugs, add features. I love that Linux is making it to a greater audiance and that free software is starting to take off, but I hope to god that doesnt meen an influx of lazy stupid users that results in the dumbing down of software *cough* Gnome *cough*.

I really do hope that post was a joke.

Hey do you know how to stop people from haxoring my XP box?

Is this a trick question?...

(What? How am I supposed to know what manual page? If I knew, I wouldn't need it.)

Hmmm... You could try by actually specifying a page.... like say

man pthread_create

If this post dosn't go up properly, it's because *someone* needs to stop sniffing my computer, and rerouting my traffic. And could you please stop trying to hijack my computer? It's getting old, and it's annoying the binrev crew.

<sarcastic>I cant imagine why</sarcastic>

Plus, do you think every hacker in the world visits binrev? Chances are that the "evil hacker" isnt going to read this!

I'm sorry if that seemed harsh, I dont wish to deter a future Linux user, but if you are going to use Linux, actually learn how! It's different from Windows, you need to understand that it will take some amount of learning to get the hang of it, if you arent prepared for that, why are you in this forum?

What man page?!?!?!!?!?

Edited by slacker
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I am so good at trolling it's not funny.

Yes, the evil hacker is on this forum. In fact, a few days ago, he was using my account. Fag stole my cookies and sucked up half the milk. I'm probably being ARP poisoned right now.

Pretty graphical interface is where it's at. I open the terminal and I have no clues or hints for what to do. At least bloatware UI's have icons.

The reason you don't design a UI is because YOU ALREADY KNOW HOW TO USE YOUR PROGRAM. Thus you forget that your users have very little idea of how to use your program. There's also next to no reason to make a Graphical frontend because your target market won't use it. (they are all 1337 haxors, right?) Then in comes a Microsoft refugee, and it's WTF? Which man page do I want? How do I know? Any help would be good... page 1? That dosn't do anything... How do I know to type "man pthread_create?" What does pthread_create mean? Why can't I just get some help? RTFHF dosn't even work in linux. Just on a side note, I was using SLAX and tried to open a help file. It told me I didn't download the help files. That's great! Where do I get these help files, and how do I add them to the program? Where's the help file for doing that?

This happens because developers don't/can't design user friendly programs. Previous knowledge is assumed. (Kind of like going to a college that only had Junior level+ classes. You would only be able to go there if you transfered in.) Why should developers waste time doing a UI anyway? Nobody's paying them for thier trouble. Most of the users will use the CL anyway.

So, in addition to flaming me, can I ask how the 1337 H4X0R5 here got started up the Linux learning curve? Anyone install *nix and wander around blindly like I'm planning to do? Either I will destroy my computer, or I will learn Linux. Er, Unix.

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King Tiger, you're way too used to new computers.

A lot of the people here, and programmers in general, do not view computers as a means of entertainment or "user friendliness." Computers are tools to automate repetitive tasks and accomplish work. Unix was designed a very long time ago for people to accomplish work. The machines available at that time were not capable of rendering graphical interfaces. If people wanted their computers to do work, they learn to use the computer. In the end, it saves time. So I guess the question I would ask you is: what work do you seek to accomplish on Linux that you feel you cannot, or would not like to accomplish on Windows. Remember, computers are tools that are designed to be used for constructive purposes, not destructive purposes.

I went on a mini-rant in the IRC last night about how so many people in this forum casually dismiss Windows as being "lame," when they really have minimal knowledge about Windows, or any other system for that matter. A lot of programmers prefer Unix environments because it was designed for us. Windows was designed for the consumer. However, the popularity of Windows has made it a very versatile OS. There is very little, if anything, that cannot be accomplished from Windows, but that can be done in a Unix environment. You keep using the phrase "1337 h4x0r." I'm wondering why. Sure, many people here are "hackers," but it's a silly definition. Everyone here thats worth their salt has programming experience and is either actively involved in constructive projects, or has been in the past. Hacking should be done towards a _constructive_ ends. A lot of the new kids think they can just install Linux and be hackers by using existing tools. These people are very misguided and tend to be seeking a _destructive_ ends from their "hacking."

I strongly urge you to reconsider your mindset about what you seem to think is "1337 h4x0ring," because from I can see, it is not only misguided, but also destructive. This is not the way to use computers to benefit any community. I hope I have been clear.

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EDIT: To steal from Slacker

... CAUTION: ANGRY RANT ...

I'm sorry but let me explain this.

My mother, a very very computer illeterate woman can sit down and use Gnome. No problem. She knows where everything is with out me telling her. She can find her way around just FINE.

To the same extent I have had to show people how to use an iPod. I work retail and see it all the time.

Another thing, about you trying to find a file on your flash drive. DID YOU TRY

cd /mnt/sda1
ls

? That would have found the file. If it was in a folder you could have CD'd into that dir.

Hell get XO Sugar OS. I made a thread about it. It's linux for little kids and all it is is GUI. THe CLI is hidden. It's very Apple with how it looks so you might like that one.

Seriously Gnome and XFCE have the best UI's imo. I dont see what your problem is. Ok so you dont know the CLI, then stay away from it, far far away.. Your being h4x0red anyway you dont have time to mess with it.

Forget the fact that the UI's on most *nix distros can be changed to suit what you need or want. Also forget the fact that Gnome and KDE have artists that design these UI's.

Stick with the GUI. Please

Edited by BigBrother
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I am so good at trolling it's not funny.

Yes, the evil hacker is on this forum. In fact, a few days ago, he was using my account. Fag stole my cookies and sucked up half the milk. I'm probably being ARP poisoned right now.

Pretty graphical interface is where it's at. I open the terminal and I have no clues or hints for what to do. At least bloatware UI's have icons.

The reason you don't design a UI is because YOU ALREADY KNOW HOW TO USE YOUR PROGRAM. Thus you forget that your users have very little idea of how to use your program. There's also next to no reason to make a Graphical frontend because your target market won't use it. (they are all 1337 haxors, right?) Then in comes a Microsoft refugee, and it's WTF? Which man page do I want? How do I know? Any help would be good... page 1? That dosn't do anything... How do I know to type "man pthread_create?" What does pthread_create mean? Why can't I just get some help? RTFHF dosn't even work in linux. Just on a side note, I was using SLAX and tried to open a help file. It told me I didn't download the help files. That's great! Where do I get these help files, and how do I add them to the program? Where's the help file for doing that?

This happens because developers don't/can't design user friendly programs. Previous knowledge is assumed. (Kind of like going to a college that only had Junior level+ classes. You would only be able to go there if you transfered in.) Why should developers waste time doing a UI anyway? Nobody's paying them for thier trouble. Most of the users will use the CL anyway.

It's very simple, if you design your programs for idiots, only idiots will use them. This thread seems to be proof.

So, in addition to flaming me, can I ask how the 1337 H4X0R5 here got started up the Linux learning curve? Anyone install *nix and wander around blindly like I'm planning to do? Either I will destroy my computer, or I will learn Linux. Er, Unix.

You know how I learned Unix. I downloaded the slackware disks and installed it. I just worked through it and taught myself enough to use it, and then tackled the advanced stuff. Youll notice i didnt include whining on forums about lack of pretty GUI's.

Anyone install *nix and wander around blindly like I'm planning to do?

THATS EXACTLY WHAT I DID!!!!!!! QUIT WHINING AND START USING LINUX, ITS THE ONLY WAY TO LEARN!!!! There are plenty of FAQ's and tutorials out there if you need a starting point. Only post in a forum if you have a specific question which hasnt been answered elsewhere (tutorial, forum, faq etc.)

What help file did you try to open? Pretty much every linux distro has all the basic man pages. Try:

man printf
man echo
man read

if those dont work, then you truely do not have the man pages, however, since it asked for a number, it certainly has some.

As for your uninformed bashing of CLI's, seeing as you cant use one, I dont think your in the position to criticize them. On the other hand, myself and most other people in this forum (who run Unix) have used a CLI and GUI. CLI's are faster, more efficient and consume far less resources than GUI's.

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I started learning linux by attempting to install Mandrake 8.1 (Yeah, I know it's Mandriva now) on my 75 mhz

computer. This thing had an 800 mb hd, when I started playing, I didn't know what a partition was or anything.

By the time I finally got it installed, I had learned a lot about Linux and computers in general. From there, it was

just reading some tutorials online when I needed some guidance, but there's nothing like getting your hands dirty

and tinkering. If you mess something up, who cares... nothing a reinstall won't fix, just back up your crap.

Anyways, here's an ebook that covers the basics of Linux... yes, it was released as an ebook so it's not stealing.

http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz

Also check out the TLDP http://www.tldp.org/

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You guys' rant's suck. Add more anger and blind rage.

Yes, a computer is entertainment. I hand code websites for fun. It's satisfying when I make something work. I don't think a computer is only for "work." A computer is also for games, communication, social networking, etc.

For the record, I have never had a new computer. This summer, I may build my own. That still dosn't count as "new" though. I get what you were trying to say though.

Windows 3.1 was pimp. Every other one was Microsoft trying to protect you from yourself. Don't get me started on DRM and restrictive liscenses.

1337 H4X0R is a sarcastic term. No self respecting system explorer calls themself that. However, skiddies and chat room rats do.

My point with the command line thing was HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW TO TYPE "cd /mnt/sda1 ls"? Pretty much the only way to find out is to do a internet search on it. What do I do if I can't set up an Internet connection? How would I know to type "ifconfig xYz on" or whatever the hex you do. I'm screwed. That is probably the biggest problem with CLI. You have to know how to use it in order to use it. (Captain Obvious!) A good UI, you can mess around with it and eventually figure it out.

Dang, can't a person show a little ignorance around here? Maybe if I pretend to know everything I won't get flamed? Nevermind, flame on.

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You know if you politely asked for help I'm sure a multitude of people would have helped.

Instead you said "The UI sucks, wtf. I hate the CLI it's dumb, wtf. Why cant they get a good User interface? A pretty GUI is where it's at."

In my opinion you are showing blind rage with your posts as well.

Look at Rute: a Linux users handbook. Read it front to back. If you have questions ask, but dont flame stupid shit like "The CLI is so 1986 lolololol"

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You know, flaming someone in this manner, for asking a question, in particular a self-confessed Linux newbie IS JUST NOT CRICKET!!!!!

Christ, I remember when I first started to use the Linux command line, I was lost! I had not frigging clue where to begin! I learned by a) Trial and Error, B) Linux Format magazine! (This is a British magazine, but available in many other countries. If you can find it in your newsagents, I sugest you buy it!!!)

It's very simple, if you design your programs for idiots, only idiots will use them. This thread seems to be proof.

Tell me, out of all those who have flamed over UI here, how many of you use OpenOffice, KOffice or (worst) MSOffice to write up your documents.

Whats that? most of you??

Tell me also, how many of you have ever written a document in LaTeX or TeX?????????

Whats that? None of you??

Until you've tried that, stop going round claiming to be "uber-command line junkies"

You want to rant about sucky UI's, fine! Those sucky UIs make life easier for certain tasks! - Oh, and all office software is designed for idiots, and we all use it! - I guess that makes us all idiots then!

If someone comes here genuinly looking for help, immediate flaming in large-print-font IS OUT OF ORDER - Yes, I too installed Linux and "Wandered about blindly" but when I started out, I didn't have a clue where to start looking for information. Linux wasn't "as popular" as it is now. Fair enough, a lot of the commands were similar to what I'd learned years before using Dos (IBM, NOT M$) - but I stopped using computers for several years and when I came back to them, I was using WinBlows.

I, like many of you, struggled like hell getting to grips with Linux systems. I would not wish that on anybody, and if someone asks for help, that person is to be provided with the help they require. As long as the request is well structured. Not "I'm stuck, help me" - that tells nothing about the nature of the problem. Sometimes I can work out what the request is if it comes in like this, but it's very rare.

Quit the flaming, there is no call in this instance! Offer serious advice, or shut the hell up! and for christs sake, if you are going to flame, use a 12pt font or smaller, not a 24pt font - thats just plain irritating!

Next time I won't be as polite!

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Dude, google is your friend. When I first installed Linux I was presented w/ a 80x25 terminal (no x11), and didnt know how to shut it down. After running a few searches, I found that the command for shutdown, was shutdown, and that -r argument could be used to restart (a time arg is also supplied). I then wondered how to start kde. After trying to run "startkde" outside of X, I realized (from KDE's error), I needed to start something called X; a couple searchs and 5 min later, I knew startx would do what i needed.

Windows 3.1 was pimp

No it wasnt. Windows 3.1 was 16-bit w/ cooperative multitasking (its hard to comprehend how much that sucks). Even other OS's availible at the time were much better (OS/2 was 32-bit with pre-emptive multitasking, and has a firefox port (more recently of course)). Windows 3.1 was anything but "pimp"

Tell me, out of all those who have flamed over UI here, how many of you use OpenOffice, KOffice or (worst) MSOffice to write up your documents.

No, I dont use openoffice/ms word/koffice etc. (i use emacs). I dont use X11 anymore (with the exception of the occasional graphical app for pictures, movies etc. (that cant be rendered on the fb) :)

It should be noted, were someone to come with an intelligent thought out question, void of "CLI are stupid" type comments and constant sarcastic uses of "1337 h4x0r", I would be happy to help. However, this poster is clearly just lazy and ignorant. He obviously hasnt tried very hard before running to the forums and asking stupid questions filled with the ignorant sludge which appears to constantly spew from his mouth.

Sorry about the big fonts, Ill tone them down :)

Edited by slacker
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Oh, and to add to this, Tiger DID later say there was an element of sarcasm in the remarks made!

Instead you said "The UI sucks, wtf. I hate the CLI it's dumb, wtf. Why cant they get a good User interface? A pretty GUI is where it's at."

We've all felt like this at times - Remember, we were all noobs once, and we all found the learning curve a little steep at times! DON'T tell me that you didn't! that will mark you as a liar in my book!

From what I can work out, Tigers comments here were purely an airing of exasperation, and there is nothing wrong in that!

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The sarcasm he was referring to was "1337 H4X0R". Judging from the fact hes defending his statements, I can only assume they werent intended to be sarcastic. I get it, hes frustrated, but seriously, I saw NO specific question in his post.

The time he didnt spend whining about how the UI is too hard for him was spent asking why someone was attacking his box. Perhaps specific question that can be answered, not "blah! i tried to drag files off my USB drive, but i cant do it! man! what page!!!!".

It took me a whole 3 secs to find what he was looking for: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=u...G=Google+Search

http://www.computerhope.com/unix/uman.htm

http://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.a...430844&rl=1

He clearly didnt even try before posting this.

Why would you CentOS, its designed for servers. Gentoo is almost certainly not "too slow", seeing as it allows you to install only what you need, and compiles everything for your machine. Most distro's arent inherently slow (fedora being an exception, as it is tailored for modern machines), its all about how you set them up, this should be obvious. If you can run XP on it, you can run anything on it.

Edited by slacker
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