zearle

Open Call From Zearle

36 posts in this topic

Dear Superheroes,

This is Zearle. I am in graduate school and I am decided to write a paper on the community. I seek to do what I did with the song, tell our story, explain our position, tell them why we do what we do. I do not seek to bring any heat onto the community, expose anyone, twist the truth, or give them the ammunition they need to cause us damage. My brother and I are going to co-write the paper. I am looking for (anonymous) text interviews, audio interviews, and anything you all feel will explain the reason we believe in open source, filesharing, and the uncovering of secrets. I am going to prove that YOU instigated a change in the production of media (movies, video, music, software, websites and a thousand others) historically. I am going to show that the unlocking of software directly related to the explosion of new media in the hands of the people. I love you all and I am taking this to the next level. I'm going to flip the script on the powers that be so hard that in the end we will be celebrated for changing the world and putting our ideology into action. It has been my schoolwork that had stopped my ability to record and release "hackers and crackers 2.0." This has made me feel terrible. I feel eternally indebted to the community and I have been thinking how to tell your story and world view. You show me how to manage this the right way. This is for you my friends. Thank you for your toil and hard work. You and I know what this movement has done for the people.

Just to make sure everyone knows I am who I say I am. Here is the ode to my digital dawgs that is unrecorded and still in process.

Hit me up my friends

zearle

Hackers and Crackers 2

Hacker set me free, cracker crack this shit for da peeps

Free for the people and creat-tivity free the secrets we can't see

We speak that jargon bytes and polygon gimme hard on

Dark side we on lone phreaks and release groups

Hackers revealing truth crackers and warez d00ds

Undermine your reality of profiting of what should be free

I fight for the revolutionaries not the ones who lie

Sell out mercenaries or as you call yourselves samurai

You need a sanity check before you scream and die

Your lost in the underflow we come in through backdoor

Dead link your overrun your one and we're a billion or more

We represent the elder days,

Hackers and crackers

Set the world free

From educational software to the mp3

We cracked the matrix and hacked into Gates paycheck

I gave you hackers and crackers 1.0 and this is two

Tried to make a song for the newbie and the old school

And I gotta say, that even more then before my brethren I love you

You raised me on video games, you planned for my brain to be rot

I remember when football was just grey blinking dots

You tried to make it your money-making jalopy they slipped can't you see

I lived it all, punch card to floppy from zip disk to DVD

We were there on every occasion we that are thedigital generation

Then was born the language of freedom my mind is free on the 'net

Underground media gathering place trade placeof things you don't bout yet

You fucking government stoogeI'm in your base and I'm killing your d00ds

The best is free like Linux open source we plead Microsoft is shit to me

You drove warez underground but in hidden FTPs software and music still abounds

On the IRC we trade and clown you and the software that should be free

Some use bottler some use catchers every downloads means freedom to me

See movies that I would never see, listen to the music that I would never hear

Thanks to the hackers and crackersI see clear raise my fist and beer

Your encryption I crack with black pen and on PC or MAC

I pay a fair price if I wasn't living off ramon, beans and rice

We're in your network and all over your server like mice

We won't pay for your CDs no more

Fuck the store and overpriced albums

More money for the artists not busting us is your problem

Pay the cats who croon fuck these exec goons and fuck a buck a song on itunes

I got a terabyte of warez and I know just what the fuck to do

I got it on a t1 and gave the ftp to everyone--hit me on IM and I'll give that shit to you

Radium you know how I feel

Thank you for making my music real

Stankmy dog for support leading a

Binary revolution towards our collective freedom

If you thinkthat operation fast link even made us blink

We rise like phoenix from the ashes and flame to live again

We will remember the work of Kalisto, deviance, class, echelon, wlw, fairlight, apc and razor 1911

We retire your names in hacker/cracker heaven

Myth, keep doing what you dowe need you!

UCF and vengeance we see you

The word crack is Phrozen cause they keep it real

The Legion of Doom is gone--the Masters of Deception have passed on

Hacker wars are old fashioned now we work together make the net better

Godabuzz got busted by the fuzz dredwerks has gone back into the earth

Time changes and so does the year, one of the last standing was Asian warez

Props to movienight for making this your theme and did Zearle right

Your overpriced apps I stack, two clicks, to Astalavista, and I gotta a crack

"Hacker breaks into server", "hacker causes downtime",

Hacker steals top secret documents and puts them online",

Don't make lame ass headlines, tell the public what it's about.

Are you mad that hackers got into your secret files?

Or are you mad your secret files got out?

And whats up with hackers getting blamed for SPAM too?

We don't create SPAM, we hate that shit as much as YOU do!

The difference is, we don't go and cry to someone else

We go after those bastards, and handle that shit our-damn-selves!

Hackers are unbiased, we try to make this world grow.

No boundaries, no constraints, dissatisfied with the word "no".

Knowledge without limits, minds that will not be controlled.

They try to stop us, but it ain't over 'til WE SAY SO!

You call us thieves and criminals. You call us terrorists!

Your kids will look back and call us Revolutionists.

free as in freedom;free as in beer

this'll be our cheer

making bill gates pheer, for his money

all his lies don't taste like honey

wmf and rpc, hell I wouldn't take it for free

i got a rootkit all up in your shit

you better change the locks on your voicemail box

I'll spoof your CPN to get access to your closest friend

your local switch is acting as my snitch

if I can't set up a tap to enact the trap

a remob'll do the job

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Dear Zearle the Invincible,

As a named voice among nameless thousands, I applaud your efforts to put forth the nature of a hacker in a move to separate us from the crackers who seek to further sully our already tarnished image. I suspect this thread will garner you many emails and PMs from hackers who wish to speak their mind and voice their outrage for the current state of affairs that faces us each day. I hope your thesis proves to be a success and serves to set in motion a change of views even if it's in the minds of those who read it.

Feel free to contact me at tehbizz [at] binrevmeetings.com if you would like to.

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This is just a note to confirm that this is, in fact, my good friend Zearle and not a scammer or anything. Help him out as best as you can.

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Hi Zearle, I really like your Hackers & Crackers song.

As you are working on version 2.0, here's my advice:

1.0 speaks too much about warez and that kind of stuff. I see v2.0 is less like that, that's a good point. But, here's a part I would reconsider:

"The best is free like Linux open source we plead Microsoft is shit to me

You drove warez underground but in hidden FTPs software and music still abounds

On the IRC we trade and clown you and the software that should be free"

Okay, for me it seems like "Linux Rocks Windows Sucks" and the following lines speak of warez and that we are all gonna get the software for free. Yeah, well, the problem is that this is a common attitude amongst linux newbies, or these kind of people who just dual boot with Linux and in fact use Windows as their main OS. Let the warez underground to the crackers. The point about this is that real linuxians will use few/no warez. Just a point here.

On that part, again, I would just point out the fact there is not only Linux but also other opensource OSes such as freeBSD.

Ah, and also, something I think isn't mentionned in your song: maybe talk about DRM, this new form of removal of individual rights directly aimed at making more money of legit users?

Keep up the good work,

-Aghaster

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either way, I love it Zearle, I can't say more than keep up the fantastic work. We haven't spoken in a while. But I'm definitally digging the new shit allot!

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This is Zearle. I am in graduate school and I am decided to write a paper on the community. I seek to do what I did with the song, tell our story, explain our position, tell them why we do what we do. I do not seek to bring any heat onto the community, expose anyone, twist the truth, or give them the ammunition they need to cause us damage. My brother and I are going to co-write the paper. I am looking for (anonymous) text interviews, audio interviews, and anything you all feel will explain the reason we believe in open source, filesharing, and the uncovering of secrets.

"Unauthorized Access" is a great documentary to start you off on your search of why people explore:

Part 1: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1646887501989339110

Part 2: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2387531692844488528

Part 3: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-872619603717542336

Part 4: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2260279623644518670

As for why people believe in filesharing, that's a weird question. Weird because alot of hackers take exception to it (while ironically most of the warez people I know take exception to the media perception of hackers.) I can tell you that for leechers, there is no philosophy or reasoning on filesharing. They do it because its free. They're the bane of the warezworld, just as clickkiddies are the bane of the hackerworld. For the more mature people, they have economic and more complex reasonings to justify their actions. Reasonings that question why creativity software (Photoshop, MS Office) have prices that are inflated far beyond the cost of development and production. Reasonings that question why no one can try out music from new bands without spending a fortune, just to see if they like them in the first place. Reasonings that question the worth of a movie ticket.

I am going to show that the unlocking of software directly related to the explosion of new media in the hands of the people.

I'd say not so much the unlocking of software, but the unlocking of hardware. Software has always been able to be had freely. First by pirates through the warez scene, and then through the legal avenues of Open-Source. But what really stopped people then was the hardware and constraints of the Internet.

Even 5 years ago, the idea of doing a weekly podcast for most people was out of the question. A 20MB MP3 took 2+ hours to download via dialup, and alot longer to upload. Few people had access to streaming audio servers. Making videos was even worse. That really only became feasible with the promulgation of high speed Internet, larger hard drives, and the ever-simplifying process of importing video onto the computer.

Good luck Zearle.

-A fan.

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Hello.

I believe the warez scene, as depicted in Zearle's songs, is about sticking it to the man. The irony of saying "man" is that these people are anything but "Men". They are monsters. I'm no "great hacker" of the olden days, but if you need anything Zearle hit me up at oracle.soho (at) yahoo (dot) com.

Keep well.

:paw: Soho

Edited by Soho
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I must agree that the original talks about warez a bit too much and gives sort of a negative idea of the community.

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ZEARLE hit me up if you need anything...

subzero [ta] binrev.com

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I find the comments about MS ironic, given the number of people who work at MS and support Linux./OOS by funding such projects or hand out Linux CD's to there co-workers.

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I find the comments about MS ironic, given the number of people who work at MS and support Linux./OOS by funding such projects or hand out Linux CD's to there co-workers.

This brings up an interesting point. Is it correct to place blame or anger on the programmers and hackers at MS? Probably not; however, it seems a bit more correct to place blame on the person who built a 40 billion dollar empire on a seriously flawed product.

Keep it groovin'

:paw: Soho

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Whatup Zearle, cant wait for the H&C2.0 music, but one thing: i was browsing Zearle.com and I noticed something, BinRev.com is listed under politics and not tech :omfg:

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Dear Zearle the Invincible,

As a named voice among nameless thousands, I applaud your efforts to put forth the nature of a hacker in a move to separate us from the crackers who seek to further sully our already tarnished image. I suspect this thread will garner you many emails and PMs from hackers who wish to speak their mind and voice their outrage for the current state of affairs that faces us each day. I hope your thesis proves to be a success and serves to set in motion a change of views even if it's in the minds of those who read it.

Feel free to contact me at tehbizz [at] binrevmeetings.com if you would like to.

Thank you my friend for the high praise and offer of help. I need it..

This is just a note to confirm that this is, in fact, my good friend Zearle and not a scammer or anything. Help him out as best as you can.

Thank you as always Stank. Much Love...hope you have a bit of time to assist?

Hi Zearle, I really like your Hackers & Crackers song.

As you are working on version 2.0, here's my advice:

1.0 speaks too much about warez and that kind of stuff. I see v2.0 is less like that, that's a good point. But, here's a part I would reconsider:

"The best is free like Linux open source we plead Microsoft is shit to me

You drove warez underground but in hidden FTPs software and music still abounds

On the IRC we trade and clown you and the software that should be free"

Okay, for me it seems like "Linux Rocks Windows Sucks" and the following lines speak of warez and that we are all gonna get the software for free. Yeah, well, the problem is that this is a common attitude amongst linux newbies, or these kind of people who just dual boot with Linux and in fact use Windows as their main OS. Let the warez underground to the crackers. The point about this is that real linuxians will use few/no warez. Just a point here.

On that part, again, I would just point out the fact there is not only Linux but also other opensource OSes such as freeBSD.

Ah, and also, something I think isn't mentionned in your song: maybe talk about DRM, this new form of removal of individual rights directly aimed at making more money of legit users?

Keep up the good work,

-Aghaster

Aghaster, can we make some designations of types within the community? Such as...crackers, hackers, linux, end users..something like that? Good points you make, keep em coming if you got a lil time. I need this type of talk and thought.

Thx

either way, I love it Zearle, I can't say more than keep up the fantastic work. We haven't spoken in a while. But I'm definitally digging the new shit allot!

Thanks for your support my friend. And wtf holla! Drop me a line homie.

This is Zearle. I am in graduate school and I am decided to write a paper on the community. I seek to do what I did with the song, tell our story, explain our position, tell them why we do what we do. I do not seek to bring any heat onto the community, expose anyone, twist the truth, or give them the ammunition they need to cause us damage. My brother and I are going to co-write the paper. I am looking for (anonymous) text interviews, audio interviews, and anything you all feel will explain the reason we believe in open source, filesharing, and the uncovering of secrets.

"Unauthorized Access" is a great documentary to start you off on your search of why people explore:

Part 1: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1646887501989339110

Part 2: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2387531692844488528

Part 3: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-872619603717542336

Part 4: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2260279623644518670

As for why people believe in filesharing, that's a weird question. Weird because alot of hackers take exception to it (while ironically most of the warez people I know take exception to the media perception of hackers.) I can tell you that for leechers, there is no philosophy or reasoning on filesharing. They do it because its free. They're the bane of the warezworld, just as clickkiddies are the bane of the hackerworld. For the more mature people, they have economic and more complex reasonings to justify their actions. Reasonings that question why creativity software (Photoshop, MS Office) have prices that are inflated far beyond the cost of development and production. Reasonings that question why no one can try out music from new bands without spending a fortune, just to see if they like them in the first place. Reasonings that question the worth of a movie ticket.

I am going to show that the unlocking of software directly related to the explosion of new media in the hands of the people.

I'd say not so much the unlocking of software, but the unlocking of hardware. Software has always been able to be had freely. First by pirates through the warez scene, and then through the legal avenues of Open-Source. But what really stopped people then was the hardware and constraints of the Internet.

Even 5 years ago, the idea of doing a weekly podcast for most people was out of the question. A 20MB MP3 took 2+ hours to download via dialup, and alot longer to upload. Few people had access to streaming audio servers. Making videos was even worse. That really only became feasible with the promulgation of high speed Internet, larger hard drives, and the ever-simplifying process of importing video onto the computer.

Good luck Zearle.

-A fan.

Good points my man. And well said. Can I sign you up for the assist on this project?

Hello.

I believe the warez scene, as depicted in Zearle's songs, is about sticking it to the man. The irony of saying "man" is that these people are anything but "Men". They are monsters. I'm no "great hacker" of the olden days, but if you need anything Zearle hit me up at oracle.soho (at) yahoo (dot) com.

Keep well.

:paw: Soho

This shit is like haiku. I do need something and I will hit you up. Thanks for the extension.

Here is my brothers conceptualization of the project. He is a good man and my best friend so ya'll can trust him. My role is to work as a liaison between him and you. It was his idea, he asked me if it would be possible to write about the work you have done. He asked me if I could find some help. I told him I would drop a line on my friends @ binrev and see what's popping.

btw don't get it twisted, we are the first to go to college, we ain't no rich boys playing radical..

My Brother:

Firstly, let me say that I am thankful for your response to our request. This is just the sort of information/data I think will prove useful to the ethnographic research that my brother and I intend to compile. It is your personal experiences, ideas, and beliefs that can only serve to make the final product meaningful—not only to academia, but to you: the super heroes and revolutionaries that stand at the front line of this beautiful and burgeoning movement. We have already said that it is more important to create a story that YOU and your compatriots will be proud of. A fair, honest, and accurate depiction of the movement is the best way to honor those who are now engaged in it, and possibly speaking for myself, the only and best way that I can add to this struggle. Although, I am at the lowest level, far from the trenches of the battle, I have the utmost respect and admiration for the cause, and can only dream of participating in some way, fantasize about helping you in whatever capacity possible.

I am an academic student living in New York whose time is spent (wasted) mostly on the regurgitations and incantations of ideas, theories and people who have long-since passed, on social movements that have long-since withered, on historical traditions and discourses that are now almost meaningless in their application and intangibility.

I am also a freethinker, a rebel and iconoclast within the various traditions touched upon above; brother of Zearle, son of a revolutionary. Whatever I have to give is yours, whatever I can muster for the cause, I am more than willing to sacrifice—an idea that apparently is not lost or misunderstood within the movement you represent.

As a relative neophyte, I know nothing about the technical aspect of the movement itself, however as a political deviant and student of historical politics and social movements, I believe I understand the principles that lie beneath and drive it.

It may precisely be this reality that might make me the right man for the job. Out of my ignorance, and of course willingness to learn and help, I can bring this cause to the masses, explain your movement and the principles that support it to the masses in a prose that is accessible to them—most of whom are even more ignorant than I. Will this not help to garner and rally support? There are many, like me, who admire you guys and stand in unison to your causes/beliefs.

There is something unquestionably unique about this movement, something that will, I believe, change copyrighting practices, the ugly face of this brand of private property forever! And there is also something powerfully unique about its participants also; you are united together irregardless and unaffected by time and space—maybe the last true altruists, the definitive modern/futuristic revolutionaries. In this way, you are pioneers, those who are honored and cherished today, but much more so in the years to come. You have no historical equal! I can only superficially compare you to others, as you are originals in a sea of repetition and mimicry.

Let us built the movement together, let us stretch out beliefs around the globe, unify under a single banner! I want to help you change the world, something you have already begun to do—masterfully! Lets put it in the books together—from the books to the classrooms, to the social conscious and unconscious.

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I can't wait for this...love your works Zearle, the only thing I've got to offer is my favorite line to people who ask me if I am a hacker or a phreak. "I'm a hacker from the start, but a phreak at heart." 'Tis cheesy I know, but it's all I've got.

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Good points my man. And well said. Can I sign you up for the assist on this project?

For sure. :)

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Ever since the first time I heard one of your songs, I was hooked and can't stop listening... your work is awesome. Anyways, about the H&C 2.0:

- I agree with the aforementioned '1.0 negative view' posts... definitley a good change this time around.

- I think that the two lines at the end about revolutionarists are a bit too brief in my opinion (you're zearle, so I guess you probably knows what flows and what doesn't)

- And as others have suggested - add a bit more about DRM, maybe NSA/big brother/domestic spying, war for the profit or arms companies, etc etc.

Keep up the good work and drop me a line at anubis26 {aT) g.m.a.i.l (C0M} if you need anything.

And just a few thoughts for lyrics:

"We are the free thinkers

Not some drinkers

Of the product of the propaganda machine

Delivered to us via the television screen."

"Stop us they cannot

Except maybe with a rifle shot.

Then, maybe, the people will come to their senses

To tear down the government defenses.

And then comes the revolution.

Who gives a shit 'bout the US constitution?

'Cuz when our rights are trampled and our economy fucked.

Then the people will learn to think.

/rant

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I don't have many "wise words" or anything like that. I started in the warez scene and I have seen the good and bad sides of it. It was amazing having 1000 people counting on me to release links to software. I am done with that now. I lost a few friends because I left that scene. I was also a script kiddy for a time. That got boring because I wasn't learning anything. Now, I do my best. And that's good enough.

If you need any help, I will be glad. Your music makes my day all the time.

greyfox =-attttt-= nothingconcept.com

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Zearle,

I find it interesting that the idea of people at MS being friendly to Open Source Software was basically ignored. I love your work, but if your not open minded about the freedom of information and ideas and you call yourself somebody who wants to see that in others.. you are not anything like what you claim to be.

I'm not flaming. I respect you. I like your music. I'm not saying you can not do good, and I hope that you continue your work because I respect the works that I have seen from you so far. I just find the idea that you see MS and the people who are forced to work there to make a honest living as as one and the same - "evil" - when your being told flat out that some of the people support the same ideals on freedom of information as you do, and even use part of the money they get paid bi-weekly to support Open Source projects.

You clearly support open source projects and believe in freedom of information as well. Does that make you evil too? If you hold somebody to a set of ideals or feel that they are "evil" or unethical for doing something or believing in a certain way, I feel that you should in turn judge yourself by the same ethical or moral restraints.

Doing anything else than that hurts your course and damages what you are trying to do. You say that you want to get the world to hear the truth, to show people what they are missing. What about what your missing? What about the truth that you are not seeing? What about your own legitimacy to "spread the word"? How do we know that the display of close mindedness that you have just displayed by ignoring the fact above was "correct"? I personally do not feel that closing your mind to an idea makes it true; In fact history has shown that the ability of people to do so usually means it is more true than people are comfortable to admit. Just like how the earth is round and not flat, how the earth is not the center of the universe, and how eating meat on Sunday is not going to kill you.

Please understand that I say this not in anger, but in measured protest for the actions I have just seen displayed in an attempt to further your own cause by helping you learn from your humanity and become a better figurehead for what you are trying to do.

After all, if you can not look past your own faults or even hold conflicting ideas in your mind without at least looking for truth in both of them, why should people follow you or your ideals?

The fact is people do not like that idea. They do not like the idea of "the bad guy" being good. You want it to be black and white, but the world is really just.. shades of gray. It is entirely possible that you deem to be evil, is in fact good. And if you can not see the good in others than how will you see the good in the people that make up the world you are trying to change? It does not make sense to me, that you would ignore such goodwill that could only help your cause and be used in your fight to your advantage.

I find it sad, and I hope that instead of the alternitives you read these words and reflect on them.. and to be clear, I say all this as a friend.

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Zearle,

I find it interesting that the idea of people at MS being friendly to Open Source Software was basically ignored. I love your work, but if your not open minded about the freedom of information and ideas and you call yourself somebody who wants to see that in others.. you are not anything like what you claim to be.

I'm not flaming. I respect you. I like your music. I'm not saying you can not do good, and I hope that you continue your work because I respect the works that I have seen from you so far. I just find the idea that you see MS and the people who are forced to work there to make a honest living as as one and the same - "evil" - when your being told flat out that some of the people support the same ideals on freedom of information as you do, and even use part of the money they get paid bi-weekly to support Open Source projects.

You clearly support open source projects and believe in freedom of information as well. Does that make you evil too? If you hold somebody to a set of ideals or feel that they are "evil" or unethical for doing something or believing in a certain way, I feel that you should in turn judge yourself by the same ethical or moral restraints.

Doing anything else than that hurts your course and damages what you are trying to do. You say that you want to get the world to hear the truth, to show people what they are missing. What about what your missing? What about the truth that you are not seeing? What about your own legitimacy to "spread the word"? How do we know that the display of close mindedness that you have just displayed by ignoring the fact above was "correct"? I personally do not feel that closing your mind to an idea makes it true; In fact history has shown that the ability of people to do so usually means it is more true than people are comfortable to admit. Just like how the earth is round and not flat, how the earth is not the center of the universe, and how eating meat on Sunday is not going to kill you.

Please understand that I say this not in anger, but in measured protest for the actions I have just seen displayed in an attempt to further your own cause by helping you learn from your humanity and become a better figurehead for what you are trying to do.

After all, if you can not look past your own faults or even hold conflicting ideas in your mind without at least looking for truth in both of them, why should people follow you or your ideals?

The fact is people do not like that idea. They do not like the idea of "the bad guy" being good. You want it to be black and white, but the world is really just.. shades of gray. It is entirely possible that you deem to be evil, is in fact good. And if you can not see the good in others than how will you see the good in the people that make up the world you are trying to change? It does not make sense to me, that you would ignore such goodwill that could only help your cause and be used in your fight to your advantage.

I find it sad, and I hope that instead of the alternitives you read these words and reflect on them.. and to be clear, I say all this as a friend.

I am confused. I don't have anything against the idea of Microsoft "being friendly to Open Source Software." I do not believe in a binary of good and evil. Are you religious? Because I am not, I am all about grey. If you are referring to the above lyrics, THEY ARE OPEN SOURCE. I did not write all the words. I asked, similar to this post for a community project, and received lyrics from over 20 individuals. So. if you are referring to a line in the above song. I am confused.

Second, your point and definition of "evil." I have stated that I do not believe in good and evil as a religious binary. Now, what word do you have for corporations who employ teenagers and woman who inhale poisonous fumes, touch chemicals, and work in sweat shop conditions? What do you call a corporation who buys small developers to avoid competition, who pollutes third world countries. Are familiar with the "Eichmann argument?" This is a debate that came out of WWII. How to prosecute the Nazi, do you only bust the higher ups, the planners, the leaders? What about the prison guards, the button pressers, the lowly "the people who are forced to work there to make a honest living." Using the argument that EVERY Nazi is guilty of carrying the ideology and work of Nazism, you can argue that the employees of corporate giants are in fact, guilty of knowingly, consciously, working for and with a company who does "evil" things. Ward Churchill made this argument about the employees who worked in the World Trade Center and was almost fired from his job. People want to believe that you are innocent if you do what your told or, as you argue, to survive. Is it ok to rob your brother, mug your sister, work your father to death, starve your mother to survive? I say no it is not.

This all reminds me of the line from Run DMC "not bad meaning bad but bad meaning good." I am not a post modern theorist. I do believe there are people who mean well, who have empathy, who are willing to make a stand. And greedy, self driven people who have only anger for the poor and the have less. Okay, MS and Apple can eat shit. I took a stand. That is what attracted me to the community, the willingness to take a stand. Should there be copyrights? No. Do, I believe in royalties? No. Is Apple being fair charging 1.00 a song, no. Why do most the world still have no access to the internet, computers?

Why should you assist me? Because you disagree. That is why I felt this should be open to all. I want your debate, but not directed at me, at the issues. What makes this flame is that you directed it to me and not the issues you disagreed with.

I have never made a cent off of music that I created with warez. Every song I have ever made was in thanks to the people who allowed a lower class kid yell "injustice" from his bedroom. I stand for a million people who exist and who created a voice out of the products we once could not afford.

In the end, I can't make a clear right and wrong argument. There is a lot of grey, but I am willing to take a stand. How about you?

What is evil? Who is evil? Where is evil? Is dropping cluster bombs on third world people even a little bad to you?

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Keep in mind that you can work for a company and not be evil yourself....and even the company is not evil... but some people within it may do evil things. Just like a country.

Some people from one country commit an atrocity against some people from another country. Are they evil? I would say yes. Is the whole country that they came from evil? of course not.

What I am getting at, to everyone here, is that you cannot be so universal in your statements. You judge people individually.

To use zearles metaphor: Jenny, in the mailroom of Nike, is not "evil" because some high up overpaid stuffed shirt in the company that she works for is hiring slave labor in Mexican or Chinese sweatshops. Nor is she evil for not doing somethign about it. No, I don't beleive that at all. I would argue that she MAY ACTUALLY BE doing something about it as far as her position allows her to. Maybe she leaks information out. Maybe she she blogs about it to enlighten people about these facts. Maybe she even goes so far as to commit acts of civil disobedience about it by hiding the high muckety-mucks MAIL when she sees it just to do her little part. We don't know what she does, yet we have already seemed to label her as "evil".

But judging her guilty or "evil" before innocent is not what this country is supposed to be about. Be careful how you throw around such harsh, and dare I say "evil" words. That goes to everyone.

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Zearle,

I find it interesting that the idea of people at MS being friendly to Open Source Software was basically ignored. I love your work, but if your not open minded about the freedom of information and ideas and you call yourself somebody who wants to see that in others.. you are not anything like what you claim to be.

I'm not flaming. I respect you. I like your music. I'm not saying you can not do good, and I hope that you continue your work because I respect the works that I have seen from you so far. I just find the idea that you see MS and the people who are forced to work there to make a honest living as as one and the same - "evil" - when your being told flat out that some of the people support the same ideals on freedom of information as you do, and even use part of the money they get paid bi-weekly to support Open Source projects.

You clearly support open source projects and believe in freedom of information as well. Does that make you evil too? If you hold somebody to a set of ideals or feel that they are "evil" or unethical for doing something or believing in a certain way, I feel that you should in turn judge yourself by the same ethical or moral restraints.

Doing anything else than that hurts your course and damages what you are trying to do. You say that you want to get the world to hear the truth, to show people what they are missing. What about what your missing? What about the truth that you are not seeing? What about your own legitimacy to "spread the word"? How do we know that the display of close mindedness that you have just displayed by ignoring the fact above was "correct"? I personally do not feel that closing your mind to an idea makes it true; In fact history has shown that the ability of people to do so usually means it is more true than people are comfortable to admit. Just like how the earth is round and not flat, how the earth is not the center of the universe, and how eating meat on Sunday is not going to kill you.

Please understand that I say this not in anger, but in measured protest for the actions I have just seen displayed in an attempt to further your own cause by helping you learn from your humanity and become a better figurehead for what you are trying to do.

After all, if you can not look past your own faults or even hold conflicting ideas in your mind without at least looking for truth in both of them, why should people follow you or your ideals?

The fact is people do not like that idea. They do not like the idea of "the bad guy" being good. You want it to be black and white, but the world is really just.. shades of gray. It is entirely possible that you deem to be evil, is in fact good. And if you can not see the good in others than how will you see the good in the people that make up the world you are trying to change? It does not make sense to me, that you would ignore such goodwill that could only help your cause and be used in your fight to your advantage.

I find it sad, and I hope that instead of the alternitives you read these words and reflect on them.. and to be clear, I say all this as a friend.

I am confused. I don't have anything against the idea of Microsoft "being friendly to Open Source Software." I do not believe in a binary of good and evil. Are you religious? Because I am not, I am all about grey. If you are referring to the above lyrics, THEY ARE OPEN SOURCE. I did not write all the words. I asked, similar to this post for a community project, and received lyrics from over 20 individuals. So. if you are referring to a line in the above song. I am confused.

Second, your point and definition of "evil." I have stated that I do not believe in good and evil as a religious binary. Now, what word do you have for corporations who employ teenagers and woman who inhale poisonous fumes, touch chemicals, and work in sweat shop conditions? What do you call a corporation who buys small developers to avoid competition, who pollutes third world countries. Are familiar with the "Eichmann argument?" This is a debate that came out of WWII. How to prosecute the Nazi, do you only bust the higher ups, the planners, the leaders? What about the prison guards, the button pressers, the lowly "the people who are forced to work there to make a honest living." Using the argument that EVERY Nazi is guilty of carrying the ideology and work of Nazism, you can argue that the employees of corporate giants are in fact, guilty of knowingly, consciously, working for and with a company who does "evil" things. Ward Churchill made this argument about the employees who worked in the World Trade Center and was almost fired from his job. People want to believe that you are innocent if you do what your told or, as you argue, to survive. Is it ok to rob your brother, mug your sister, work your father to death, starve your mother to survive? I say no it is not.

This all reminds me of the line from Run DMC "not bad meaning bad but bad meaning good." I am not a post modern theorist. I do believe there are people who mean well, who have empathy, who are willing to make a stand. And greedy, self driven people who have only anger for the poor and the have less. Okay, MS and Apple can eat shit. I took a stand. That is what attracted me to the community, the willingness to take a stand. Should there be copyrights? No. Do, I believe in royalties? No. Is Apple being fair charging 1.00 a song, no. Why do most the world still have no access to the internet, computers?

Why should you assist me? Because you disagree. That is why I felt this should be open to all. I want your debate, but not directed at me, at the issues. What makes this flame is that you directed it to me and not the issues you disagreed with.

I have never made a cent off of music that I created with warez. Every song I have ever made was in thanks to the people who allowed a lower class kid yell "injustice" from his bedroom. I stand for a million people who exist and who created a voice out of the products we once could not afford.

In the end, I can't make a clear right and wrong argument. There is a lot of grey, but I am willing to take a stand. How about you?

What is evil? Who is evil? Where is evil? Is dropping cluster bombs on third world people even a little bad to you?

No, I'm not 'religious'; I'm open minded and willing to learn. I'm not talking about your musics lyrics. And as I said, I'm all about the "Shades of Grey".

What I'm trying to get you to understand is that if your going to try to lead people, you will in turn be attacked. As the figurehead for the ideals you are trying to propagate, you will become the target of the people who disagree with you. Not by me; I want to help. That is why I am attempting to help you understand that you must be beyond reproach. People will use Ad Hominem, and you should be ready.

If you study history you find that every time the leader of a revolution died, the movement in turn died with them. So if you want your ideals to spread, you need to replicate yourself in others so that they in turn take up the banner and can carry it on in case you fall. This may be easy to do in a group of people who are on your side but the hardest part - and the most important - is to get people who think different from you to help you further your ideals. Using the Galileo argument as you did in your appeal of "think of the children being bombed" is not going to help against people who do not agree with you. Yes I find it sad. I think that children dying from poison is wrong. But the people who disagree with you will ignore that issue and find fault in your logic anyway.

Stankdawg has provided a concise concentration of one of my main points; A group of people or an individual person can be part of the greater whole and not be supportive of that greater whole. Just as 'Jenny' can do what she can to fight the system best by being part of it from the inside with sabotage, its entirely possible that an Apple/Google/Or MS employee can work at the company in question, accept the paycheck, and support open source within the bounds of the legal commitments they made.

If you really want to attack the issues, use better ammo and be ready for what other people will try to use against you. Here is a link to a list fallacious arguments:

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

I hope it helps you in your cause.

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feverdream: I regret to step in like this, but you are off-topic, borderline troll.

While you may have some valid points, why are you making them here and now? Do you see that you killed the otherwise productive thread? Over a single line in a song that has multiple contributers?

I've read your posts a few times and I think I can determine that you are making vacuous, weak claims that Zearle is not open-minded and not willing to criticize himself. Like a philosophy 101 student trying to wax poetic.

Even if true, so what?!? Just great Fever, what a great contribution. How incredibly relevant to the thread. Don't take this the wrong way, though, I'm not trying to flame you! You killed the thread just to hear your own voice, vacillating about the need to keep an open mind and give MS a break. But I mean that in a good way!

Notice StankDawg, who stepped in to try to things up, get it back on track, and did it very concisely. Learn from the master :)

Then reread the purpose of the thread, the intent of the OP. And show some manners. Start your own thread if you have something to say that you think is important but unrelated.

Finally, if you have something to contribute to the project, please post or contact Zearle. Because at the end of the day, you choose to belong to a group despite its imperfections. In real life, you don't save yourself for your perfect soul mate, your clone who looks and thinks exactly like you do... How could humanity have progressed this far if everyone did that?

No, you go out and take a stand, make things happen, and work towards a better world. Or shut the hell up and let better people do it for you. Either way, stop staring at your navel so much...they are just like assholes: everybody's got one---move on already.

And dammit, can everyone stop with the huge, multiple, page-long quotes?!? We can scroll up to reference, or pull just a line or two...not the whole thing. (again, like SD did)

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Indeed, very n1ce Song!

Nothing to add to that.

I don't think that I'm able to help anybody around here, but if ya need sb. from Germany. I'm, in!

HaNoCr

:cry:

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