tehbizz

Is the 'split' of our beloved intarweb here?

38 posts in this topic

I've been keeping up with the looming threat of the Internet 'split' for a few weeks now as things are getting hotly debated. What could this mean for everyone who uses the web for just about anything these days? It could mean that binrev.com will no longer house our community but could lead to a Chinese dog porn site and other terrible things of the nature.

What is this split that I'm talking about for those of you confused? With the US wanting more control over the Internet itself and ICANN playing patsy, there is a growing faction of mainly EU countries/people/etc who are strongly opposed to the US' continued control of the root zone files for the DNS system. What some want to do is create their own DNS system and their own root servers, and provide an alternate Internet. This network of two separate DNS systems could (and will) cause a clash of resolution and cause any domain name to resolve to anything they want. CNN could now resolve to goatse.cx if these new root files determine such.

Here are some links for reading:

[url="http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=12663"]http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=12663[/url]
[url="http://go.theregister.com/feed/http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/14/wsis_blog_three/"]http://go.theregister.com/feed/http://www....sis_blog_three/[/url]
[url="http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/11/14/HNworldsummit_1.html"]http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/11/14/...ldsummit_1.html[/url]
[url="http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/11/14/HNwsisdebate_1.html"]http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/11/14/...isdebate_1.html[/url]
[url="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3306"]http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3306[/url]
[url="http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=12683"]US Reaches Net Detente with UN[/url]
[url="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/16/tunis_net_control/"]http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/16/tunis_net_control/[/url]


I will add more once I find them.

PS: Yes, technically this belongs in LinkZ but wil get more coverage in GH.

EDIT: Added OSNews and The Register. Edited by tehbizz

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"Internet governance" and committees are the last things this burgeoning information utopia needs. Heap of shit, hope they have a bad day, etc.

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A lot of people are worried over the fact that the US (like China) might start blocking entire TLDs from being accessed or rerouting their requests somewhere else. Some of this scare was instantiated by the US's delaying of the .xxx TLD being created for porn sites.

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I'm not informed enough to have an opinion. I'll be reading those links tehbizz, thanks. My (admittedly) pre conceived idea on this is I can see both sides of the arguement as rational. The US invented this, basically. Daddy gets most say in the house, everyone knows that. Then again, the EU is probably terrified when they see things like ID in schools, the president of our country calling it "valid theory", etc. I suppose I wouldn't want Islamic fundies running the DNS root system, why would they want (perceived) christian ones running it?

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Here's a link that I found. It's a pretty good read.
[url="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3306"]http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3306[/url]

I found that link from [url="http://www.unicttaskforce.org/"]Here[/url]. There is more good information on that site as well. Edited by Booter

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Move the DNS to the North Pole for the penguins to take care of...
you know the U.S. isn't going to just hand over DNS rights to E.U. any time soon.
the way is see it we're damn if we do, and damn if we don't
any chance the U.N. could step in on this? i doubt it but worth a shot.

EDIT* South Pole Edited by batman24

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[quote name='batman24' date='Nov 14 2005, 05:15 PM']Move the DNS to the North Pole for the penguins to take care of...
you know the U.S. isn't going to just hand over DNS rights to E.U. any time soon.
the way is see it we're damn if we do, and damn if we don't
any chance the U.N. could step in on this? i doubt it but worth a shot.
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The UN is sponsoring WSIS. The real worry behind the DNS war isn't about the US "handing over" DNS root zone files, it's about the EU doing it clandestinely and without any approval or advice from any other major body. The EU wants to set up its own DNS system whether ICANN and the US like it or not.

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Sorry for what I said earlier Edited by mason4300

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[quote name='mason4300' date='Nov 14 2005, 06:49 PM']As far as Im concerned, the Europeans can kiss my fucking ass. The internet was an American invention, and is still an American thing. If some stupid asses across the ocean want their own internet, fine, but they sure as hell shouldnt be allowed to control anything that the U.S. uses.
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I hope you arn't using a Gsm cell phone. Cause if they wanted, tmobile, verizon, and cingular (Att and nextel too I think) would be fucked if they stopped allowing them access to the world band. Ohh, and your a redneck.

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The controversy continues! I remember listening to Beave on the telephreak conference talking about this same subject a while back. From what I remember the UN has already stepped in and tried to negociate, but the US basically told the UN to fuck off and the matter was not negociable. I can't wait to see the out come will be.

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[quote]And somebody mentioned earlier that Christians are running the internet. HA! That is a stupid thing to say.[/quote]
What I said was that the perception could be that Christian fundies run the United States. Explain why you think that would be a stupid thing to say, considering as the perception (key word here, look it up if you must) among the citizens of the world, by and large, is just that. The Internet is not "open to anyone" either. Potentially it could be, but various things including government controls, often rooted in religious values, make that currently not the case. Don't believe me? Take a trip to Iran.

Edit: This was probably off-topic for the most part, I know. I'll read about this when I have a chance and hopefully give an informed opinion on it soon enough. Edited by Evolve

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[quote name='mason4300' date='Nov 14 2005, 07:55 PM'][i]Why[/i] would [i]anyone[/i] want that? thats stupid, the whole point of the internet is to be able to connect to the world, the EU bigheads are just a bunch of douches who think they need more power. and God help us if the UN comes into this...And somebody mentioned earlier that Christians are running the internet. HA! That is a stupid thing to say. the internet is open to anyone, and considering what is available on the internet, that alone is proof enough that using the whole "religious control" is a crappy excuse to want control over the internet.
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You obviously lack the capacity to grasp the reality of the subject and instead, just want to sound tough and mean. After reading over your two replies a number of times, I'm not even sure if you know what this thread is really about. Edited by tehbizz

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[quote name='tehbizz' date='Nov 15 2005, 05:45 AM'][quote name='mason4300' date='Nov 14 2005, 07:55 PM'][quote name='Automaton' date='Nov 14 2005, 05:51 PM']Why can't they just split it up into aww and eww: American-Wide-Web and European-Wide-Web ?
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[i]Why[/i] would [i]anyone[/i] want that? thats stupid, the whole point of the internet is to be able to connect to the world, the EU bigheads are just a bunch of douches who think they need more power. and God help us if the UN comes into this...And somebody mentioned earlier that Christians are running the internet. HA! That is a stupid thing to say. the internet is open to anyone, and considering what is available on the internet, that alone is proof enough that using the whole "religious control" is a crappy excuse to want control over the internet.
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You obviously lack the capacity to grasp the reality of the subject and instead, just want to sound tough and mean. After reading over your two replies a number of times, I'm not even sure if you know what this thread is really about.
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Anyway, my point was simply that you could have 2 different suffixes. That would mean you could still access all web sites, but different governments would be in control of each. So, if I wanted a website in Europe, it would be at eww.google.com and if I wanted one in America, it would be aww.google.com. That way, noone really loses, as far as I can tell.

And why the hell are you having a go at the Europeans wanting more power? America has been trying to exert it's control over _everything_. And, btw, Britian created the first computer, the first proper train system, the first proper telephone network, and so on ad infinitum. But we aren't stopping you from regulating your own stuff :roll:

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[quote name='Automaton' date='Nov 15 2005, 10:48 AM']Anyway, my point was simply that you could have 2 different [b]prefixes[/b]. That would mean you could still access all web sites, but different governments would be in control of each. So, if I wanted a website in Europe, it would be at eww.google.com and if I wanted one in America, it would be aww.google.com. That way, noone really loses, as far as I can tell.
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This wouldn't make sense with how DNS works, because it all runs from suffixes to prefixes. Ultimatly, in order to resolve both eww.google.com and aww.google.com you would need to talk to the name server for .com, which passes you on to google.com, which in turn gives you the name for the server your after.

[quote name='Automaton' date='Nov 15 2005, 10:48 AM']And why the hell are you having a go at the Europeans wanting more power? America has been trying to exert it's control over _everything_. And, btw, Britian created the first computer, the first proper train system, the first proper telephone network, and so on ad infinitum. But we aren't stopping you from regulating your own stuff  :roll:
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From what I understand of what's happening, and what I think is the better way to go about it, it's not about the Europeans wanting more power but rather about us wanting the power to be de-centralized away from America. It should be an international body that controls the Internet, and not a single nation. It just doesn't make sense for a global communications system to be totally goverened by a single nation, instead of a global body.

(This is only my opinion. Don't flame me too much if you disagree :))

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I think that the Europeans have a good idea. Why not make the internet global? The US are just power-tripping bastards.

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[quote name='chaostic' date='Nov 14 2005, 08:40 PM']

I hope you arn't using a Gsm cell phone. Cause if they wanted, tmobile, verizon, and cingular (Att and nextel too I think) would be fucked if they stopped allowing them access to the world band. Ohh, and your a redneck.
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Not GSM. But TMobile Sucks anyways and so does GSM.


This is not the point. The point is that the EU is not pushing this as much as Iran and China are. Do we really want China to have a say in what WE can and can't see on the internet. Even then, the EU censors thier DNS servers much much more than the US. If you live in Germany or France, you cannot google anything with the word Nazi in it. And we all know about China.

The US has nothing to loose in this situation considering the fact that we already have an independant infrastructure compared to the EU or China ( not even close) . The only people it will hurt is the people who break away. The next time someone in Hong Kong wants to go to Ebay.com, they will get tentacle porn , thats all.

By the way, it looks like the US is winning :[url="http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/15/D8DT06S8N.html"]here[/url]

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[quote name='latiffs' date='Nov 15 2005, 07:16 AM']I think that the Europeans have a good idea. Why not make the internet global? The US are just power-tripping bastards.
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Why give it to China or the EU. Not only are they powertripping but they also are being a bunch of fascists censoring everything they can get thier hands on.
You make no sense since ICANN runs the root servers and they are multinational.

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[quote name='sazzer' date='Nov 15 2005, 06:36 AM'][quote name='Automaton' date='Nov 15 2005, 10:48 AM']Anyway, my point was simply that you could have 2 different [b]prefixes[/b]. That would mean you could still access all web sites, but different governments would be in control of each. So, if I wanted a website in Europe, it would be at eww.google.com and if I wanted one in America, it would be aww.google.com. That way, noone really loses, as far as I can tell.
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This wouldn't make sense with how DNS works, because it all runs from suffixes to prefixes. Ultimatly, in order to resolve both eww.google.com and aww.google.com you would need to talk to the name server for .com, which passes you on to google.com, which in turn gives you the name for the server your after.

[quote name='Automaton' date='Nov 15 2005, 10:48 AM']And why the hell are you having a go at the Europeans wanting more power? America has been trying to exert it's control over _everything_. And, btw, Britian created the first computer, the first proper train system, the first proper telephone network, and so on ad infinitum. But we aren't stopping you from regulating your own stuff  :roll:
[right][snapback]152773[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
From what I understand of what's happening, and what I think is the better way to go about it, it's not about the Europeans wanting more power but rather about us wanting the power to be de-centralized away from America. It should be an international body that controls the Internet, and not a single nation. It just doesn't make sense for a global communications system to be totally goverened by a single nation, instead of a global body.

(This is only my opinion. Don't flame me too much if you disagree :))
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How is that different than what we have?!?! ANYONE CAN MAKE THIER OWN DNS SERVER. Its Iran and China that want a say in everything. This would not be bad if it wasnt comming from these 2 poor excuses for countries/governments.

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Ok, I read up on this this morning, and perhaps someone with a better grasp on peering arangements and how the core root system works could explain something I don't know.

Would a multiple root system work well? If so, what are the risks to US interests to allow that, both fiscally, and as far as national security would be concerned. Those are the only two reasons I can think of the US govt is holding on so tightly. On the issue of the possibility of increased internet censorship due to areas like Iran, North Korea, China etc being able to censor their own root... Is that a real possibility and one likely to affect the rest of the world, or a red herring?

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[quote name='Evolve' date='Nov 15 2005, 01:10 PM']Ok, I read up on this this morning, and perhaps someone with a better grasp on peering arangements and how the core root system works could explain something I don't know.

Would a multiple root system work well? If so, what are the risks to US interests to allow that, both fiscally, and as far as national security would be concerned. Those are the only two reasons I can think of the US govt is holding on so tightly. On the issue of the possibility of increased internet censorship due to areas like Iran, North Korea, China etc being able to censor their own root... Is that a real possibility and one likely to affect the rest of the world, or a red herring?
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If you live in the US , there is nothing at all to worry about as a citizen. US companies might loose money becuase there might be less business going on for a short term but this is unlikely.

As for the EU, this will entain creating a new infrastructure for thier servers which is going to prove to be costly. It will hurt them the most becuase they rely on the US .

China just wants a say in something they cant control from beyond thier borders. This is a bad idea becuase after all, its China.

As for the UN. i am not exactly sure they know how the internet works. If they did, this whole thing would be a non-issue since ICANN is doing a great job keeping everyone happy. It would be nice if the UN secretary general ( Kofi Annan) would open up a browser or give an email address just so we know that he is on the same page as everyone else. Somehow i doubt this.

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Annan's email is probably kannan@un.org or something close to that, what a hard thing to figure out ;).

EU won't have to really rebuild much considering they do RUN some of the root servers (the EU runs i.root-servers.org, parts of f.root-servers.org, k.root-servers.org, and half of m.root-servers.org), they do not control the root zone file however.

As for not being affected by this because you live in the US, are you living under a rock? If the 'net splits, almost any US run .com/.org/.net/etc could be subverted to another site as denote in my initial post on this subject. I guess that's a fathomable loss you're saying is "okay" for US businesses to take?

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[quote name='tehbizz' date='Nov 15 2005, 02:27 PM']Annan's email is probably kannan@un.org or something close to that, what a hard thing to figure out ;).

EU won't have to really rebuild much considering they do RUN some of the root servers (the EU runs i.root-servers.org, parts of f.root-servers.org, k.root-servers.org, and half of m.root-servers.org), they do not control the root zone file however. 

As for not being affected by this because you live in the US, are you living under a rock?  If the 'net splits, almost any US run .com/.org/.net/etc could be subverted to another site as denote in my initial post on this subject.  I guess that's a fathomable loss you're saying is "okay" for US businesses to take?
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Why dont you just read the update on slashdot. They basically say what I said. In addition to that , I asked about 5 of my family members at Lucent what would happen and they said nothing.


"As for not being affected by this because you live in the US, are you living under a rock? If the 'net splits, almost any US run .com/.org/.net/etc could be subverted to another site as denote in my initial post on this subject. I guess that's a fathomable loss you're saying is "okay" for US businesses to take?"


Yea, this only works for a country like the EU trying to get into a server based in the US. There is no difference now. If I want to go to Google in Germany I just add on de . Again, its not the EU. The EU is almost sort of a middleman. Its China and Iran that are the threats. Edited by EncinoMan

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Oh yes, /. is the end all of purely factual and accurate information. If you believe anything on /., I'll give you a good +1 naivete.

If you're saying that it would only affect requests coming into the US, just how do you expect them to inspect every single request and filter it properly for every single request made every nanosecond? Sure, it's doable now and it works rather well however it is not functioning on the plane of an entire continent.

If there was a split, there'd be two sets of root zone files, neither distinguishable from the other and no differention in protocols, just how would everything get sent to the right place? What about those users using proxies (or heaven forbid, a state-controlled parent proxy)?

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