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#1 nyphonejacks

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 05:53 PM

I hope someone else on here can provide me some assistance..

I have been tasked with setting up a TV set-up in a restaurant in NYC...

currently they have 3 TVs that are fed from RG59 with BNC connectors feeding a composite (standard def) input on the televisions - connected to a matrix switch (BNC connectors, composite/standard def)

they are replacing the TVs - cable boxes, and VCRS...

the new set up is 3 LED televisions
1 DVD player (HDMI output)
1 blu-ray player
2 HD cable boxes

I assume that there is not much that I can do with the RG59 cable, so i am planning on running 2 CAT5 wires to each location with HDMI over CAT5 baulns.. I found some for $40/pair at tiger direct http://www.tigerdire...9487&CatId=3667
seems like the best price that i will get for those..

I can not find a reasonably priced 4x3 or 4x4 HDMI matrix switch... so i was considering getting 4x3 (or 4x4 HDMI splitters, then connecting them to 3 separate 4x1 HDMI switches but that would increase the amount of HDMI patch cords, so i am not sure that it is too good of an idea, plus it does not reduce the price too much for the hardware - but it does add to the amount of time to install, and added points of failure (not to mention increasing the difficulty of the customer to switch between sources)

I have found 4x2 HDMI matrix switches for around $100, but once you get to 4x4 matrix HDMI switches the price jumps up to around $800

customer said his boss did not want to pay $1000 to set this up, which is why they have had the TVs sitting in boxes and have not set them up yet... I told him that it should not cost that much..

i figure i will need anywhere between 10-24 HDMI cables depending on how I connect them (i am thinking of getting 6x 4-pack HDMI cables @$15/pk) http://www.tigerdire...&Sku=D15-8064 4

I need about $350-400 for the labor and CAT5 runs combined
the baulns cost $40/pr totaling $$120
the HDMI cables are $90 in total (6x 4-pack @ $15/pk)
so with that i am @ $560-610

i need to try to find a 4x4 HDMI matrix switch that will keep the budget below $1000

otherwise I am going to have to just get a 4x2 matrix switch and a 1x2 HDMI splitter and 2 of the TVs are going to have to deal with the same source - which i do not think will be acceptable

#2 nyphonejacks

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 06:20 PM

not to double post but...

i see that there exists HDMI over COAX that uses BNC connectors - if i get these connectors it would save time and damage caused by running CAT5s to the TVS.... would I be able to use the existing matrix switch that uses BNC connectors or would I still require a matrix switch?

perhaps an HD RF modulator for each device? then do the switching by changing channels on the TVs?

#3 Afterm4th

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 10:29 PM

What's the models of TVs? THere may be other options

#4 nyphonejacks

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 10:39 PM

What's the models of TVs? THere may be other options

i would have to get back to the restaurant and take a look... i did not pay too much attention to them other than the fact that they are LED...

i do not really feel like taking a trip to mid-town just to look at what they got, unless i absolutely have to - what other options might i be looking at?

i would consider going component minus the audio, because that is going thru the speaker system in the ceiling.. but then again - i am not sure on if the DVD and blu-ray have component outputs...

guess i am going to have to take a trip to get model numbers, unless i can get the guy to text that info to me tomorrow...

EDIT-
i just have to get this done before passover is finished and they open back up...

Edited by nyphonejacks, 18 April 2011 - 10:42 PM.


#5 Afterm4th

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 11:45 PM


What's the models of TVs? THere may be other options

i would have to get back to the restaurant and take a look... i did not pay too much attention to them other than the fact that they are LED...

i do not really feel like taking a trip to mid-town just to look at what they got, unless i absolutely have to - what other options might i be looking at?

i would consider going component minus the audio, because that is going thru the speaker system in the ceiling.. but then again - i am not sure on if the DVD and blu-ray have component outputs...

guess i am going to have to take a trip to get model numbers, unless i can get the guy to text that info to me tomorrow...

EDIT-
i just have to get this done before passover is finished and they open back up...



I do this for a living (not exclusively).

Also the models of BluRay Players and switch would help.


The other option is DLNA. High end TVs now carry it. It pushes high def over cat6. There's also TVs with wirless DLNA, but those are really high end mostly.


What kind of media are you pushing? Is it just a BluRay on repeat? Also, how is the audio being passed?

The more info you can give me the better. Maybe if we drew this out on an online mindmap or brainstorming site it could be easyer for me to help?



EDIT:

Also, are you doing audio through HDMI? (again all models of devices will help - some do audio through hdmi, some dont)

Edited by Afterm4th, 19 April 2011 - 12:04 AM.


#6 nyphonejacks

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:37 AM



What's the models of TVs? THere may be other options

i would have to get back to the restaurant and take a look... i did not pay too much attention to them other than the fact that they are LED...

i do not really feel like taking a trip to mid-town just to look at what they got, unless i absolutely have to - what other options might i be looking at?

i would consider going component minus the audio, because that is going thru the speaker system in the ceiling.. but then again - i am not sure on if the DVD and blu-ray have component outputs...

guess i am going to have to take a trip to get model numbers, unless i can get the guy to text that info to me tomorrow...

EDIT-
i just have to get this done before passover is finished and they open back up...



I do this for a living (not exclusively).

Also the models of BluRay Players and switch would help.


The other option is DLNA. High end TVs now carry it. It pushes high def over cat6. There's also TVs with wirless DLNA, but those are really high end mostly.


What kind of media are you pushing? Is it just a BluRay on repeat? Also, how is the audio being passed?

The more info you can give me the better. Maybe if we drew this out on an online mindmap or brainstorming site it could be easyer for me to help?



EDIT:

Also, are you doing audio through HDMI? (again all models of devices will help - some do audio through hdmi, some dont)


i will try to get there today and get as much information as possible about all of the hardware on site.. the audio is not going to need to go thru the HDMI - doubt that the audio will even need to be outputted in stereo since the audio is just in ceiling mounted speakers...

the more that i am researching this the less that i want to get involved in it.. but not too sure i can back out now...

someone gave me this advice on Y! answers

One thing to be cautious of when you're using HDMI baluns is to ensure they are fully HDCP compliant. If not, the client may have trouble watching encrypted video sources like Blu-Ray movies.


seems that HD is not only expensive to implement, it is also very picky... im more used to: CAT3/5, RG6/59, phones, networks, access control, overhead paging, CCTV

was going to ask where you were located, but i see the canadian flag, so i will assume that you are not near 212

#7 Afterm4th

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 02:23 PM

I am on the other side of the continent (250) so I dont think Ill be able to pop in and give you a hand.


I too was originally only into computers and electronics then I started working at a retail store where they sold high end receivers and TVs and bluray players and digital audio blah blah blah



Often jobs like these are 1000 dollar jobs for a reason.

Also, dont forget to find out what kind of media they are playing. If they just intend to play a bluray on repeat, or several blurays or if they have digital cable or whatever...


Im 100% willing to help you all the way in it, but the more info I know the better.


Also, do you know of an online drawing colaberation site where we can plot some stuff out so we're both on the same page?


EDIT:

Also if you can, take pictures!!! The more pictures of layout the better!

Edited by Afterm4th, 19 April 2011 - 05:02 PM.


#8 nyphonejacks

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:31 PM

I am on the other side of the continent (250) so I dont think Ill be able to pop in and give you a hand.


I too was originally only into computers and electronics then I started working at a retail store where they sold high end receivers and TVs and bluray players and digital audio blah blah blah



Often jobs like these are 1000 dollar jobs for a reason.

Also, dont forget to find out what kind of media they are playing. If they just intend to play a bluray on repeat, or several blurays or if they have digital cable or whatever...


Im 100% willing to help you all the way in it, but the more info I know the better.


Also, do you know of an online drawing colaberation site where we can plot some stuff out so we're both on the same page?


EDIT:

Also if you can, take pictures!!! The more pictures of layout the better!


i just happened to be in the city today, so i stopped by and got the hardware on site written down...
sorry i did not take any photos... but the runs should all be <100ft

what they have in the rack right now is:

3 - powerflex 6250 ashly http://www.ashly.com...r-powerflex.htm (multi channel amplifier / audio)

1 - rane digital rpm88 programmable multi-processor http://www.rane.com/rpm88.html

1 - knox rs4x4hb routing switch http://www.knoxvideo...RS4x4-01-04.pdf (current matrix switch)

2 - Scientific Atlantic SA4250HDC High Def cable boxes http://www.timewarne...-4240HDC4250HDC (TWC link, because that is the provider not sure if the firmware in the box with have any effect on any advice that you might have, doubtful... but just in case)

------------

i did not get the model number of the VCRs that are in place, because it is pointless, as they are going to be taken out - along with the TVs that are currently mounted on the wall

------------
new hardware that I will have to put in is :

1- Sony upscaling DVD - DVP-SR500H http://esupport.sony...DVPSR500H&LOC=3

1- Sony Bluray BDP-S380 http://esupport.sony...l=BDPS380&LOC=3

1- Sony Bravidia Edge 55 inch EX62 http://www.sonystyle...552921666294429

2- Sony Bravidia Edge 46 inch EX52 http://www.sonystyle...552921666297844

-------------

any help that you can provide would be great...

i thought perhaps QAM modulators, but they are ridiculously overpriced

there is a RG59 coax with BNC connectors (no big deal changing the ends) the HDMI over coax adapters seem expensive (the ones that I found anyway) BUT - if i could use the existing matrix switch (not sure if it would work for this application) then it might balance out the excessive price for these adapters...

i am strongly thinking HDMI over CAT5 - each TV would need 2 runs (i would probably run a 3rd one for the future so they could use the internet features of the TVs) but am concerned with distance, and the HDCP compliance that someone on Y! answers brought up to me...

Wireless HDMI might be an option, but the customer said that when they had internet at the location the WiFi signal was not too good... i do not know if it was just the channel that the WiFi was operating on was crowded, if they had security turned off and people were leeching the connection, or if there was something else at play - he claimed it was the buildings structure, but it is mostly open space, with just a single wall between the closet and the main dining area, so i doubt that was the trouble... so wireless HDMI may not be viable.. but i am not 100% sure

again any help would be appreciated... sorry if this is long, but wanted to try to get as much info out there as possible...

and no do not really know any online collaboration sites..

#9 Afterm4th

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:10 PM

K so my last question is this: What exactly do they intend to have playing on each one of the TVs?

Is it as simple as they want Bluray to play on TV1 and DVD on TV2?

Are there other televisions involved?






Also, Have you ever used microsoft visio?



Im going to start a visio project (and I'll export it to jpg and post plans in this thread if necessary).

The only thing so far that I've discovered with my prelimary research is that those TVs have a feature called Bravia Sync: http://esupport.sony...braviasync.html




Edit: on further investigation, both of these TVs have DLNA support. I dont think this helps you at the moment, but in the future It would be possible to set up a laptop or desktop media server that pushes whatever content they want from the computer over a LAN to the TV.

If you want the best picture you WILL go HDMI.. they only support 1080P over HDMI (hdmi over cat5e will work as well if you get the gear)

But again, What is their goal? Is it to display any source on either of the TVs? It may not be possible with the current gear... and if it is possible then it's not going to be optimal. Idealy you are going to want that bluray player playing on the larger TV at 1080P.

Im not sure if I quite follow on the coax bit. It's my understanding that coax is an analog signal and to go from digital to analog you're going to need a converter box. Once you have the converter box then you can hook up your coax... but why would you want to do that? I might be wrong but I dont think you're going to get HD out of coax.




I hate to say it but I think you're going to need a HDMI to cat6 swtich for optimal results. It very well could be a thousand dollar job......





Edit Again: Im making a chart/floorplan here: http://www.lucidchar...00-08620afe8f34

create an account at lucidchart (its painless) and shoot me your email and I can share the chart with you.

Edited by Afterm4th, 19 April 2011 - 09:51 PM.


#10 nyphonejacks

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:48 PM

K so my last question is this: What exactly do they intend to have playing on each one of the TVs?

Is it as simple as they want Bluray to play on TV1 and DVD on TV2?

Are there other televisions involved?


Also, Have you ever used microsoft visio?



Im going to start a visio project (and I'll export it to jpg and post plans in this thread if necessary).

The only thing so far that I've discovered with my prelimary research is that those TVs have a feature called Bravia Sync: http://esupport.sony...braviasync.html




Edit: on further investigation, both of these TVs have DLNA support. I dont think this helps you at the moment, but in the future It would be possible to set up a laptop or desktop media server that pushes whatever content they want from the computer over a LAN to the TV.


the 2 smaller TVs are in private dining rooms, the large TV is in the lounge area.. they would like to choose any source to view on any of the 3 TVs

Bravia Sync does not seem like it would make much of a difference in this set up, as i do not think that it would be needed...

never used microsoft visio... first time i am hearing about it..


seems the more research i do the more difficult that this project becomes...
i just realized that the guy mentioned to me that the cable boxes went thru the VCRs to feed the amp, which would mean that they are really only selecting 2 video sources not 4 currently.. problem with that is that i would need to remove 2 audio sources from their amplifier since the DVD and Bluray players do not have inputs to pass thru the A/V from the cable boxes... (i would have to make another trip back to confirm that)

but it is looking like i should just back out of this project.. seems like i will not be able to get it done with their budget, and i do not want to do a half assed job.. plus my mother-in-law is in the hospital right now.. so timing is not that great, although i could use the money, the hardware configuration is just kicking my ass... i like to have everything planned out before i start any project.. and at every step instead of solutions i seem to be coming into more and more obstacles

if i could set up 1 TV for just a cable box, then all i would need would be a 3x2 matrix which might help..

#11 Afterm4th

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:54 PM

Fair enough. Let me know if you do decide to continue with it.


But yeah, projects like this tend to add up $$ really fast. Sounds like they're being cheep saying they'd like it done for under a grand.


Live and Learn :)


EDIT:

if you do choose to back out, atleast tell them what you've assessed as to not burn your bridges. Let them know if they wanted to be able to view any source on any TV it will be expensive. HDMI to cat6 switches are pricey. A quick search showed me that ones that will act as a matrix go for over a grand.

Those switches would be a solution tho.

Also let them know if they choose to go with the coax adapter bit that they will be loosing quality of image. Also let them know that those TVs will only display the highest resolution if they input hdmi (or dlna, but they're unlikely to want to spend money on a media server)



Go over their options with them. Its always good to give the client options. Let them know that they can do it cheep but it wont be optimal.

Edited by Afterm4th, 19 April 2011 - 09:59 PM.


#12 nyphonejacks

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:01 PM

Fair enough. Let me know if you do decide to continue with it.


But yeah, projects like this tend to add up $$ really fast. Sounds like they're being cheep saying they'd like it done for under a grand.


Live and Learn :)


well originally i did not think it was that in depth.. he said his boss held off on installing the new TVs cause he didnt want to spend $1000 to get them installed.. i put my foot in my mouth by saying so early that it should not be that much to get everything set up... i told him i could get the TVs wired for the HDMI for about $250, which i could do with the HDMI over CAT5 but as i started planning everything out, i realized that more hardware would need to be installed/replaced that i anticipated, and this HD stuff is quite expensive.. if he did not care about the signal being HD it would be a quick in and out job...

i hate to have to tell him that i am backing out because i met with him sunday night, and this is supposed to get done durring passover while they are closed... going to be difficult to find someone to come in and get this done by next week..

#13 Afterm4th

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:37 PM

If you're really concerned about burning your bridges you can help him out by finding some one who can do it.


I'd say give him several options, and if it ends up costing him a grand, well, you did your best to do it cheaper.



Just let him know all the research you've done, and the conclusions you've made based on that research. Let him know that you only do jobs that are pro and that's why you can't do it (because it wont be a pro job).


He still may want you to do it, and he may even up the budget to 2 grand. Who knows! Give him his options I'd say.

#14 nyphonejacks

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:49 PM

If you're really concerned about burning your bridges you can help him out by finding some one who can do it.


I'd say give him several options, and if it ends up costing him a grand, well, you did your best to do it cheaper.



Just let him know all the research you've done, and the conclusions you've made based on that research. Let him know that you only do jobs that are pro and that's why you can't do it (because it wont be a pro job).


He still may want you to do it, and he may even up the budget to 2 grand. Who knows! Give him his options I'd say.


my problem is that my rep is on the line either way... i do not want to do a 1/2 assed job where someone is going to have to come behind me - that does not look good on me, yet at the same time i do not like to back out of work... but i think that over all it would be best to back out of it, then to do a half-ass job..

problem is that if i go ahead with the job, the 4x4 matrix switch that i found for around $180 has a bunch of negative reviews about it so i do not feel comfortable ordering that one, but the next cheapest one that i found was around $800.. and i just do not have the money to lay out for all of this high end equipment...

i am going to have to make up my mind what i am going to do, but as it stands now i think the best option is to step back on this one, so i will probably call him in the morning and discuss this with him.. unfortunately i do not know anyone who i could recommend to him.... anyone in NYC on here that has been following?

==========================================================================

EDIT :

I just gave the guy a price of $1220 for everything

here is the hardware that I found..


4x4 HDMI matrix switch $665
http://www.tigerdire...ku=YYS1-2719929

3 packs of these 4 pack HDMI cables for a total of $45
http://www.tigerdire...&sku=D15-8064 4

and 3 sets of these HDMI over cat 5 baluns for a total of $120
http://www.tigerdire...7&sku=M501-4022

the total including overnight shipping is $867 - I tacked on $350 for the cat5 runs and my labor... should have probably added some more... he agreed to the $1220 price.. so i will be doing this tomorrow as long as the shipment arrives overnight from tiger direct...

Edited by nyphonejacks, 20 April 2011 - 12:08 PM.


#15 dinscurge

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 07:13 PM

hope it went well, but at least you got it worked out so you can do it so probably wont loose to much rep..

#16 nyphonejacks

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 10:54 AM

hope it went well, but at least you got it worked out so you can do it so probably wont loose to much rep..


the matrix switch came this morning.. .waiting on the baluns and HDMI cables.. they are supposed to be on a UPS truck headed towards my house sometime today... so i am just waiting on that stuff to arrive so i can get the job done...

yea, so hopefully keeps my rep intact.. hopefully will lead to more freelance contracts... i am trying to build my rep/clientele so that i can really go off on my own where i do not need to keep my day job...

#17 dinscurge

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:02 PM

the matrix switch came this morning.. .waiting on the baluns and HDMI cables.. they are supposed to be on a UPS truck headed towards my house sometime today... so i am just waiting on that stuff to arrive so i can get the job done...

yea, so hopefully keeps my rep intact.. hopefully will lead to more freelance contracts... i am trying to build my rep/clientele so that i can really go off on my own where i do not need to keep my day job...


yeahs :p, but inless theres any problems should be easy to finish before the weekend is over.

#18 Afterm4th

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:37 PM

for your reference here's the main page and user manual:
http://www.aten.com/...yerid=subClass6


pages 14 15 and 16 of the manual will be the most helpfull. It gives documentation of how to use the serial port to send it hex commands. Neat feature.

(manual attached to this post)



the only downside to that switch is that it only supports 60hz while those TVs are at 120hz. Im sure they wont notice a difference unless they try to run 3d content (which they cant unless they have a 3d bluray player which they dont)... but Im not even clear if those tvs actually support 3d.. it doesnt make it clear on the features page. it says it has some 3d feature of some kind.. ill do more research after im done work


Also, those cat5e extenders will only support up to 100feet for 1080p. Make sure your cables dont exceed that length for optimal results.



It may be pricey for your client, but alteast you are doing it right



also that bluray player has some pretty cool features. It appears to be network ready with a ethernet jack..supports Netflix®, YouTube™, Hulu Plus™, Pandora® (lol pasted right from their site), wikipedia and even twitter.

If you want to score some brownie points with the manager there, set his iphone/android phone as a remote control (one of the features of someof these sony devices.. again ill do more research later

Attached Files


Edited by Afterm4th, 21 April 2011 - 04:56 PM.


#19 nyphonejacks

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 10:15 PM

for your reference here's the main page and user manual:
http://www.aten.com/...yerid=subClass6


pages 14 15 and 16 of the manual will be the most helpfull. It gives documentation of how to use the serial port to send it hex commands. Neat feature.

(manual attached to this post)



the only downside to that switch is that it only supports 60hz while those TVs are at 120hz. Im sure they wont notice a difference unless they try to run 3d content (which they cant unless they have a 3d bluray player which they dont)... but Im not even clear if those tvs actually support 3d.. it doesnt make it clear on the features page. it says it has some 3d feature of some kind.. ill do more research after im done work


Also, those cat5e extenders will only support up to 100feet for 1080p. Make sure your cables dont exceed that length for optimal results.



It may be pricey for your client, but alteast you are doing it right



also that bluray player has some pretty cool features. It appears to be network ready with a ethernet jack..supports Netflix®, YouTube™, Hulu Plus™, Pandora® (lol pasted right from their site), wikipedia and even twitter.

If you want to score some brownie points with the manager there, set his iphone/android phone as a remote control (one of the features of someof these sony devices.. again ill do more research later


nice thanks.. the ups came about 6:30 today so i will be doing this tomorrow.. hopefully it will only take one trip...

i am considering running 3 cat 5 runs to each TV 2 for the extenders, and 1 for the internet features of the TVS even tho they do not currently have internet access at location right now..

the switch looks pretty sweet and is rack mountable... so hopefully all goes well with this.. the cat5 HDMI baulns casing does not seem like they are built very solid, but they will be out of reach so as long as they work as advertised this should not really be a problem...

#20 Afterm4th

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 04:29 AM

word.

K so im still getting over how awesome those sony TVs are. LED backlit damn. They are going to look sweet man. So are they already mounted?

Dont forget to let them know how much room for upgrading they have. They are skype ready, i guess you just gotta buy their camera and mic from them. Wiring 3 cables is a good idea. The internet features look dope. Even if you had all the cat5e coming to the rack and just tied with a twist tie, ready and waiting for the next guy (or you) to come in and install them a switch/router when they get setup.

Those TVs also are wifi ready.. but ethernet is better. Plus you have to buy the wifi adapter.


Also don't forget about the DLNA support. Once they get a network in there and those TVs are on a router anyone can come in with a laptop with DLNA support (sony makes them, as does toshiba and others) you can change the TV to accept DLNA input and bamn, you have high def from the laptop to the TV over your LAN. That's another really good reason to run cat5e x3.


Haha Im totally thinking that somethings up with the sony site right now.


Really funny :) Im tryng to get to the manuals of the dvd player and the bluray player but the sony style site is 404ing for me right now. I think sony pissed off some hackers. Their PSN network was also down today.




As sick as these TVs are, sony can suck a fat dick. Their products are great, but they're a bad corporation. I admit the tvs and blurays are dope, but I would have bought samsung or even toshiba... not LG tho cuz they make an inferior tv imho.. sharp makes some sick pannels with the 4th pixel.




keep us updated man... i'll be sure to get more research done that may help..



oh, and what is this place anyways? Unless im mistaken their sound system looks overkill for a restruant. Is this a pub?

If it's a pub then what you might be able to do for extra extra brownie points is you can buy a 2gb flash drive or 4gb or even a 512, and get them to put a bunch of pictures they've taken on it and plug it into the tv and show it to them. Im sure they'll value your service more if they see that you're helping them get the most out of their product. They'll be happier in the long run if they know what their hardware can do


just my 2 cents




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