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#1 finnagin2507

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:51 AM

ive heard alot of talk on here about which language is easy to start with whether its python c++ or just c i was wondering what the best one would be too start on and the easiest to learn as a noobie im in the process of learning html just so i can do programming and web design but if someone can get back to me i would really appreciate it. thanks in advance

#2 HaNoCr

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:55 AM

I would start with HTML and Javascript (who are not really Programming Languages), it's allways good to know about it.
And after you understood JavaScript, try some real Programming Language like Phyton or C (<-- My personal choose).

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#3 LUCKY_FUCKIN_CHARMS

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:57 AM

well try c++ thats always a solid one. go to the book store and get a book on programming like c++ for dummies or something similar that will start you from scratch and walk you through. they also have nice little cd's that come with them to help you along the way. and ask questions if you arent sure how something works, thats what the forum is here for.

#4 finnagin2507

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 11:23 AM

yeah i will defintley go pick that book up is it easy or is it really complicated and am i going to be confused the whole time and not understand a damn word. because i know html is pretty easy becuase i learned a little bit in high school but i was just wanting to know

#5 jabzor

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 01:38 PM

Javascript is suprisingly powerful and very easy to use. To learn javascript to a 'usable' level will take no more than an hour or two, but to truely understand all of the functions and intricacies will likely take a life-time. :P
(ie- speed and memory optimization, writing your scripts with 1.0 compliance inmind {several newer functions will bomb on older browsers} and understanding exactly what functions are 'safe', creating your own libraries - usually containing your implementation of some of the newer functions - rewritten to use older more widely supported code to allow for the greatest customer base)

http://javascript.internet.com/ <- an excellent starting point for hands-on learning, get an adblocker though

Javascript is intended mainly for text and page manipulation - clientside scripting (though there is a server-side javascript), if you intend to do any highend graphics and audio you will want to learn flash (or java.. eww).
Then there are server-side languages - any form and graphic processing will need to take place on the server - using any number of techniques (perl, php, C/++/#, bash, ruby, python, asp <- in order of importance from best to worst, imo :P). Don't use asp. Ever.

Once you understand the 'this is what I am trying to do' mentality (thinking like a coder) you are simply left with the 'now how am I going to do this..' (the actual coding) portion, and picking up any language and going about implementing your designs in said language. There are of course the underlying security implications that one must think about (and the average developer seems so rarely does) - any application that can read to or write from any server (yours or somebody elses) is a potential security risk and all data needs to be properly parsed.

--

Ask yourself what kind of sites you are planning on building (flashy and pointless vs sleek and usable).
clientside: (x)html,xml, javascript; collectively known as 'ajax', (flash and actionscript, though it might be more worthwhile contracting professional flash developement)
serverside: php or perl, possibly ruby or python.. c-derivitive if you really want, don't use asp.. just don't
And then of course there are the graphic developement and any backend databases (sql usually).

This is a lot for a single person to effectively undertake; usually a team of developers who understand each of these fields but specializes on one or two particulars is generally best.
From a commercial point of view, the more professional your designs the more you can charge, and the more people (up to a certain breaking-point) the faster your can produce designs - this is the big issue to balance in the site design industry. :)
{Having a staff of 30+ will require a large client base to support all of you, while you on your own will be swamped. Either way the most effective method is to have a list of 'templates' and a portfolio that you can show to clients, fully customizing the templates to fit the clients needs and then adding them to your portfolio when you are done, assuming you did not sign a nondisclosure.}

All of this simply demonstrating the process of webdevelopment, perhaps you are looking at software developement, similar process though different technologies: one or two guys working on network communication, a developer and a designer working on the gui, sound designers, graphic designers and an art team, really depends on the application.
The language you plan on specializing on is probably the one you want to learn first. :)
Flash dev - learn actionscript, DBA - learn sql and then how to connect to sql in say php perl or c, writing utilities? - c/derive or maybe delphi ;)

Edited by jabzor, 13 November 2006 - 01:46 PM.


#6 Dirk Chestnut

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:20 PM

Something people don't usually consider when making suggestions is what you want to accomplish with programming. Here are my suggestions:

Make web pages- HTML (not really a language), Javascript, PHP, maybe Perl

Make programs- C++, Python, Visual Basic (not recommended)

Scripting- Bash scripting, Perl, Batch scripting or other Windows scripting

If you just want to program in general, I recommend C++ or Perl. C++ because it's relatively basic and will help you understand how programming works in a very generalized way, and Perl because you might find it easier to start with and teach yourself. I also hear good things about Python, but haven't really used it, so can't say.

If you can take classes through a school, take a class in C++ if it's offered. Again, my opinion.

Edited by Dirk Chestnut, 13 November 2006 - 02:21 PM.


#7 HippyVanMan

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:33 PM

Python is an interpreted langauge, it is designed for making web pages, it can be compiled but it's not designed for that purpose. Ruby is also used for such things, you may want to check it out, although php is by far the most popular along with perl and python and ruby are not very popular.

I personally like C# (C sharp) theres a great compiler on the msdn site and lots of free ebooks and even video tutorials, visual C# can also produce great windows programs. C# provides a good fundation before moving onto C or C++ and is easier. As well as actually being cross-platform, which not many people realise, unfortunately ive nevr used it on linux.

I personally wouldnt start with visual basic as it is less similar to C/C++ than C#.

#8 finnagin2507

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:39 PM

well i just bought c++ for dummies the book so im gonna start with that since more than a few people have said it was basic and easy so i think im going to start there. thanks for your guys feedback and if you have any other suggestions please let me know

remeber im a newbie ive got alot to learn but im willing

and another thing im going to college for computer information systems major is there anything that i should know in general that would help alot before i leave for college? i wanna kinda get a head start on this stuff now so i will be prepared and i know you guys would know what i should be concerned with so please let me know something that way i can start studying and getting familiar with thanks once again in advance!

Edited by finnagin2507, 13 November 2006 - 02:43 PM.


#9 Dexter Douglas

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:56 PM

Here's my opinion on the subject.

There is quite a difference between learning a programming language and learning how to be a programmer. You should study the basics of logic, what makes good code, and good programming practices.

I can go to Lowe's and buy some wood and nails, hammer it together and call it a house. It might keep my ass dry, but it doesn't make me a carpenter.

When I learned how to code, I was in high school. We learned how to create variables, run loops, and we programmed little games. It was fun and I learned the basics of a programming language, in my case PASCAL.

When I went to college, I studied Software Engineering. I thought I was a good programmer because I could get the computer to do what I wanted it to. I soon realized that "just getting it to run" did not a good programmer make. You need to understand the philosophy of software design to be a good developer.

Why am I preaching? Well, I want everyone who is interested in learning how to be a programmer to realize that it's just not about "getting it to run". It feels really fucking good when you pull a great hack and write a clutch piece of code. It feels 100x better when your peers respect you for being a good developer.

Good Luck!

#10 finnagin2507

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 03:14 PM

thanks for the tips and the know how i appreciate it all thanks once again

#11 notyourtim

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 04:33 PM

well i just bought c++ for dummies the book so im gonna start with that since more than a few people have said it was basic and easy


Well, it seems the question is decided then.

For anyone still reading, isn't there a reasonably popular structured imperative language out there with no object orientation, no pointer math, type checking strong enough so that the programmer doesn't need to worry about buffer overruns, and maybe automatic garbage collection? Forcing a first-time programmer to deal with excess complexity seems cruel to me.

Pascal was good, but I don't think you can find Pascal books in typical bookstores these days.

Edited by notyourtim, 13 November 2006 - 04:34 PM.


#12 That Guy

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 04:39 PM

Google this little thing called 'autoit'

Super simple and it gives an idea on how programming works.

#13 jabzor

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 05:17 PM

Read over Dexters comment, he is right on. :)

For anyone still reading, isn't there a reasonably popular structured imperative language out there with no object orientation, no pointer math, type checking strong enough so that the programmer doesn't need to worry about buffer overruns, and maybe automatic garbage collection? Forcing a first-time programmer to deal with excess complexity seems cruel to me.

Pascal was good, but I don't think you can find Pascal books in typical bookstores these days.

Ya, it's called perl or javascript. :D
(Perl is really only really OO if you want them it to be javascript somewhat less-so, but they both do all their own garbage collecting and the only buffer overflows exist if you explicitly create them or your interpretter is bugged).

As a very quick example:
perl -e"print 'hello world'; <- runs from the commandline, 'perl oneliners'
java script:alert('get ready..');document.write('hello world'); <- paste it in your browser address-bar or whatnot, wo0t for bookmarklets
Yet both can also equally be saved to actual scripts (.pl, .htm) or externally as libraries (.pl, .js).

Both are perfectly suited for pure 'learning how to program' and 'how to think like a programmer', without having to worry about memory management (though this is a good thing to know for when you move on to C/deriv) or some of the other annoyances. A typo will usually just cause your compiler to spitback an error instead of hardcrashing your kernel (good ol driver debugging), and there are nice debuggers for both programs built into the interpretters - you can also manually insert flags to follow program flow yourself if desired. They both have inbuilt associative arrays and any datatype you realistically desire to use.

We are talking about learning pure logic here though not high image processing and audio mind you;
(though you can use JS+dhtml or hook into flash,java,perl whatever to do any of this, and perl has audio-libraries and opengl.. so one could realistically write Doom of CS:Source in javascript and/or perl, not that I would want to.. :wacko: ).

BTW: pascal -> object pascal & (borland) delphi, still widely in use.

#14 HippyVanMan

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 05:33 PM

Is C++ really the easiet langauge that newbs should learn? :P

I just use C#. As its easy.

#15 HaNoCr

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 05:41 PM

NO it's not!
But I although started with C++ ;) (,ofcourse before C++ I learned CSS,Js,HTML,some PHP basics, some MySQL Basics) .

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#16 notyourtim

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 12:44 PM

BTW: pascal -> object pascal & (borland) delphi, still widely in use.


Thanks, that's good information.

Considering Delphi, Java, Python and Ruby: in which of these languages would it be easiest for a first-time programmer to learn the basics of imperative programming while ignoring the language's object-oriented features?

I left out Perl because I was looking for a language that made structured programming mandatory. I know you can write reasonably structured code in Perl, but you can also write runnable line-noise. That's fine, but not for first-time programmers, IMHO.




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