35 replies to this topic

[digitaldawgs]

Zearle,
I find it interesting that the idea of people at MS being friendly to Open Source Software was basically ignored. I love your work, but if your not open minded about the freedom of information and ideas and you call yourself somebody who wants to see that in others.. you are not anything like what you claim to be.

I'm not flaming. I respect you. I like your music. I'm not saying you can not do good, and I hope that you continue your work because I respect the works that I have seen from you so far. I just find the idea that you see MS and the people who are forced to work there to make a honest living as as one and the same - "evil" - when your being told flat out that some of the people support the same ideals on freedom of information as you do, and even use part of the money they get paid bi-weekly to support Open Source projects.

You clearly support open source projects and believe in freedom of information as well. Does that make you evil too? If you hold somebody to a set of ideals or feel that they are "evil" or unethical for doing something or believing in a certain way, I feel that you should in turn judge yourself by the same ethical or moral restraints.

Doing anything else than that hurts your course and damages what you are trying to do. You say that you want to get the world to hear the truth, to show people what they are missing. What about what your missing? What about the truth that you are not seeing? What about your own legitimacy to "spread the word"? How do we know that the display of close mindedness that you have just displayed by ignoring the fact above was "correct"? I personally do not feel that closing your mind to an idea makes it true; In fact history has shown that the ability of people to do so usually means it is more true than people are comfortable to admit. Just like how the earth is round and not flat, how the earth is not the center of the universe, and how eating meat on Sunday is not going to kill you.

Please understand that I say this not in anger, but in measured protest for the actions I have just seen displayed in an attempt to further your own cause by helping you learn from your humanity and become a better figurehead for what you are trying to do.

After all, if you can not look past your own faults or even hold conflicting ideas in your mind without at least looking for truth in both of them, why should people follow you or your ideals?

The fact is people do not like that idea. They do not like the idea of "the bad guy" being good. You want it to be black and white, but the world is really just.. shades of gray. It is entirely possible that you deem to be evil, is in fact good. And if you can not see the good in others than how will you see the good in the people that make up the world you are trying to change? It does not make sense to me, that you would ignore such goodwill that could only help your cause and be used in your fight to your advantage.

I find it sad, and I hope that instead of the alternitives you read these words and reflect on them.. and to be clear, I say all this as a friend.

I am confused. I don't have anything against the idea of Microsoft "being friendly to Open Source Software." I do not believe in a binary of good and evil. Are you religious? Because I am not, I am all about grey. If you are referring to the above lyrics, THEY ARE OPEN SOURCE. I did not write all the words. I asked, similar to this post for a community project, and received lyrics from over 20 individuals. So. if you are referring to a line in the above song. I am confused.

Second, your point and definition of "evil." I have stated that I do not believe in good and evil as a religious binary. Now, what word do you have for corporations who employ teenagers and woman who inhale poisonous fumes, touch chemicals, and work in sweat shop conditions? What do you call a corporation who buys small developers to avoid competition, who pollutes third world countries. Are familiar with the "Eichmann argument?" This is a debate that came out of WWII. How to prosecute the Nazi, do you only bust the higher ups, the planners, the leaders? What about the prison guards, the button pressers, the lowly "the people who are forced to work there to make a honest living." Using the argument that EVERY Nazi is guilty of carrying the ideology and work of Nazism, you can argue that the employees of corporate giants are in fact, guilty of knowingly, consciously, working for and with a company who does "evil" things. Ward Churchill made this argument about the employees who worked in the World Trade Center and was almost fired from his job. People want to believe that you are innocent if you do what your told or, as you argue, to survive. Is it ok to rob your brother, mug your sister, work your father to death, starve your mother to survive? I say no it is not.

This all reminds me of the line from Run DMC "not bad meaning bad but bad meaning good." I am not a post modern theorist. I do believe there are people who mean well, who have empathy, who are willing to make a stand. And greedy, self driven people who have only anger for the poor and the have less. Okay, MS and Apple can eat shit. I took a stand. That is what attracted me to the community, the willingness to take a stand. Should there be copyrights? No. Do, I believe in royalties? No. Is Apple being fair charging 1.00 a song, no. Why do most the world still have no access to the internet, computers?

Why should you assist me? Because you disagree. That is why I felt this should be open to all. I want your debate, but not directed at me, at the issues. What makes this flame is that you directed it to me and not the issues you disagreed with.

I have never made a cent off of music that I created with warez. Every song I have ever made was in thanks to the people who allowed a lower class kid yell "injustice" from his bedroom. I stand for a million people who exist and who created a voice out of the products we once could not afford.

In the end, I can't make a clear right and wrong argument. There is a lot of grey, but I am willing to take a stand. How about you?

What is evil? Who is evil? Where is evil? Is dropping cluster bombs on third world people even a little bad to you?

[StankDawg]

Keep in mind that you can work for a company and not be evil yourself....and even the company is not evil... but some people within it may do evil things. Just like a country.

Some people from one country commit an atrocity against some people from another country. Are they evil? I would say yes. Is the whole country that they came from evil? of course not.

What I am getting at, to everyone here, is that you cannot be so universal in your statements. You judge people individually.

To use zearles metaphor: Jenny, in the mailroom of Nike, is not "evil" because some high up overpaid stuffed shirt in the company that she works for is hiring slave labor in Mexican or Chinese sweatshops. Nor is she evil for not doing somethign about it. No, I don't beleive that at all. I would argue that she MAY ACTUALLY BE doing something about it as far as her position allows her to. Maybe she leaks information out. Maybe she she blogs about it to enlighten people about these facts. Maybe she even goes so far as to commit acts of civil disobedience about it by hiding the high muckety-mucks MAIL when she sees it just to do her little part. We don't know what she does, yet we have already seemed to label her as "evil".

But judging her guilty or "evil" before innocent is not what this country is supposed to be about. Be careful how you throw around such harsh, and dare I say "evil" words. That goes to everyone.

[feverdream]

Zearle,
I find it interesting that the idea of people at MS being friendly to Open Source Software was basically ignored. I love your work, but if your not open minded about the freedom of information and ideas and you call yourself somebody who wants to see that in others.. you are not anything like what you claim to be.

I'm not flaming. I respect you. I like your music. I'm not saying you can not do good, and I hope that you continue your work because I respect the works that I have seen from you so far. I just find the idea that you see MS and the people who are forced to work there to make a honest living as as one and the same - "evil" - when your being told flat out that some of the people support the same ideals on freedom of information as you do, and even use part of the money they get paid bi-weekly to support Open Source projects.

You clearly support open source projects and believe in freedom of information as well. Does that make you evil too? If you hold somebody to a set of ideals or feel that they are "evil" or unethical for doing something or believing in a certain way, I feel that you should in turn judge yourself by the same ethical or moral restraints.

Doing anything else than that hurts your course and damages what you are trying to do. You say that you want to get the world to hear the truth, to show people what they are missing. What about what your missing? What about the truth that you are not seeing? What about your own legitimacy to "spread the word"? How do we know that the display of close mindedness that you have just displayed by ignoring the fact above was "correct"? I personally do not feel that closing your mind to an idea makes it true; In fact history has shown that the ability of people to do so usually means it is more true than people are comfortable to admit. Just like how the earth is round and not flat, how the earth is not the center of the universe, and how eating meat on Sunday is not going to kill you.

Please understand that I say this not in anger, but in measured protest for the actions I have just seen displayed in an attempt to further your own cause by helping you learn from your humanity and become a better figurehead for what you are trying to do.

After all, if you can not look past your own faults or even hold conflicting ideas in your mind without at least looking for truth in both of them, why should people follow you or your ideals?

The fact is people do not like that idea. They do not like the idea of "the bad guy" being good. You want it to be black and white, but the world is really just.. shades of gray. It is entirely possible that you deem to be evil, is in fact good. And if you can not see the good in others than how will you see the good in the people that make up the world you are trying to change? It does not make sense to me, that you would ignore such goodwill that could only help your cause and be used in your fight to your advantage.

I find it sad, and I hope that instead of the alternitives you read these words and reflect on them.. and to be clear, I say all this as a friend.

I am confused. I don't have anything against the idea of Microsoft "being friendly to Open Source Software." I do not believe in a binary of good and evil. Are you religious? Because I am not, I am all about grey. If you are referring to the above lyrics, THEY ARE OPEN SOURCE. I did not write all the words. I asked, similar to this post for a community project, and received lyrics from over 20 individuals. So. if you are referring to a line in the above song. I am confused.

Second, your point and definition of "evil." I have stated that I do not believe in good and evil as a religious binary. Now, what word do you have for corporations who employ teenagers and woman who inhale poisonous fumes, touch chemicals, and work in sweat shop conditions? What do you call a corporation who buys small developers to avoid competition, who pollutes third world countries. Are familiar with the "Eichmann argument?" This is a debate that came out of WWII. How to prosecute the Nazi, do you only bust the higher ups, the planners, the leaders? What about the prison guards, the button pressers, the lowly "the people who are forced to work there to make a honest living." Using the argument that EVERY Nazi is guilty of carrying the ideology and work of Nazism, you can argue that the employees of corporate giants are in fact, guilty of knowingly, consciously, working for and with a company who does "evil" things. Ward Churchill made this argument about the employees who worked in the World Trade Center and was almost fired from his job. People want to believe that you are innocent if you do what your told or, as you argue, to survive. Is it ok to rob your brother, mug your sister, work your father to death, starve your mother to survive? I say no it is not.

This all reminds me of the line from Run DMC "not bad meaning bad but bad meaning good." I am not a post modern theorist. I do believe there are people who mean well, who have empathy, who are willing to make a stand. And greedy, self driven people who have only anger for the poor and the have less. Okay, MS and Apple can eat shit. I took a stand. That is what attracted me to the community, the willingness to take a stand. Should there be copyrights? No. Do, I believe in royalties? No. Is Apple being fair charging 1.00 a song, no. Why do most the world still have no access to the internet, computers?

Why should you assist me? Because you disagree. That is why I felt this should be open to all. I want your debate, but not directed at me, at the issues. What makes this flame is that you directed it to me and not the issues you disagreed with.

I have never made a cent off of music that I created with warez. Every song I have ever made was in thanks to the people who allowed a lower class kid yell "injustice" from his bedroom. I stand for a million people who exist and who created a voice out of the products we once could not afford.

In the end, I can't make a clear right and wrong argument. There is a lot of grey, but I am willing to take a stand. How about you?

What is evil? Who is evil? Where is evil? Is dropping cluster bombs on third world people even a little bad to you?

No, I'm not 'religious'; I'm open minded and willing to learn. I'm not talking about your musics lyrics. And as I said, I'm all about the "Shades of Grey".

What I'm trying to get you to understand is that if your going to try to lead people, you will in turn be attacked. As the figurehead for the ideals you are trying to propagate, you will become the target of the people who disagree with you. Not by me; I want to help. That is why I am attempting to help you understand that you must be beyond reproach. People will use Ad Hominem, and you should be ready.

If you study history you find that every time the leader of a revolution died, the movement in turn died with them. So if you want your ideals to spread, you need to replicate yourself in others so that they in turn take up the banner and can carry it on in case you fall. This may be easy to do in a group of people who are on your side but the hardest part - and the most important - is to get people who think different from you to help you further your ideals. Using the Galileo argument as you did in your appeal of "think of the children being bombed" is not going to help against people who do not agree with you. Yes I find it sad. I think that children dying from poison is wrong. But the people who disagree with you will ignore that issue and find fault in your logic anyway.

Stankdawg has provided a concise concentration of one of my main points; A group of people or an individual person can be part of the greater whole and not be supportive of that greater whole. Just as 'Jenny' can do what she can to fight the system best by being part of it from the inside with sabotage, its entirely possible that an Apple/Google/Or MS employee can work at the company in question, accept the paycheck, and support open source within the bounds of the legal commitments they made.

If you really want to attack the issues, use better ammo and be ready for what other people will try to use against you. Here is a link to a list fallacious arguments:

http://www.don-linds.../arguments.html

I hope it helps you in your cause.

[oldhat]

feverdream: I regret to step in like this, but you are off-topic, borderline troll.

While you may have some valid points, why are you making them here and now? Do you see that you killed the otherwise productive thread? Over a single line in a song that has multiple contributers?

I've read your posts a few times and I think I can determine that you are making vacuous, weak claims that Zearle is not open-minded and not willing to criticize himself. Like a philosophy 101 student trying to wax poetic.

Even if true, so what?!? Just great Fever, what a great contribution. How incredibly relevant to the thread. Don't take this the wrong way, though, I'm not trying to flame you! You killed the thread just to hear your own voice, vacillating about the need to keep an open mind and give MS a break. But I mean that in a good way!

Notice StankDawg, who stepped in to try to things up, get it back on track, and did it very concisely. Learn from the master

Then reread the purpose of the thread, the intent of the OP. And show some manners. Start your own thread if you have something to say that you think is important but unrelated.

Finally, if you have something to contribute to the project, please post or contact Zearle. Because at the end of the day, you choose to belong to a group despite its imperfections. In real life, you don't save yourself for your perfect soul mate, your clone who looks and thinks exactly like you do... How could humanity have progressed this far if everyone did that?

No, you go out and take a stand, make things happen, and work towards a better world. Or shut the hell up and let better people do it for you. Either way, stop staring at your navel so much...they are just like assholes: everybody's got one---move on already.

And dammit, can everyone stop with the huge, multiple, page-long quotes?!? We can scroll up to reference, or pull just a line or two...not the whole thing. (again, like SD did)

[HaNoCr]

Indeed, very n1ce Song!
Nothing to add to that.

I don't think that I'm able to help anybody around here, but if ya need sb. from Germany. I'm, in!

HaNoCr

[feverdream]

feverdream: I regret to step in like this, but you are off-topic, borderline troll.

Thank you for proving my point. People will always resort to personal attacks and fallacy when they have no logic or truth to use.

While you may have some valid points, why are you making them here and now?

Because he asked me to. Read his appeal to "the community" again if you missed it.

Notice StankDawg, who stepped in to try to things up, get it back on track, and did it very concisely.

I have no idea what his intention was. From my standpoint Stank was trying to make a point about evil and a persons absolute ability to be a part of something without supporting it... just as I was.

You should look at that list as well; You used a lot of them in your reply.

[digitaldawgs]

Sorry for the lapse. Back on track. Fever Dream and all, here is what is needed. Just 5-15 minutes or whatever time you have. I appreciate it greatly. As usual, a student does not manage time the greatest, so after disappearing for a month and having my brain-dead-late-night posts ripped to shreds by a rhetoric/logic master, if you could make haste in your replies. I would owe you (more). Counting on Fever Dream to supply something good, and any one else. Please feel free to use your MO/AKA/Cyber-identity or whatever makes you comfortable. Thanks again folks.

SEND HERE: hcpaper@gmail.com

Here is the open letter from my brother:

First I should say that I was excited to read all of the responses to Zearle’s post. To tap into this complex/radical/revolutionary community, to begin this dialog has become the fist step in fulfilling my project. I am sorry to have let so much time lapse since that first call to cooperation, unfortunately I have been consumed in my alternative studies, just trying to survive. But now I’m back, and am hoping to pick up where I left off.

I have already begun to review the available literature on the subject, where it does exist, and am disappointed by it. Too many authors and researchers have failed to correctly understand the strength, adaptability, sheer numbers and future implications of this social movement that is lead by the best among us—those visionaries who have sacrificed the time and energy to break the chains that have imprisoned information and technology—sanctioned it from the mass or general population. This is only in the rare case that there is mention of it at all! For most of the literature, I can only apologize for the academic communities’ apparent ignorance on this subject matter. They are short sighted, and exist and maneuver in somewhat of a vacuum of so-called “intellectual” banter and mimicry.

They, although part of my peer group, have lost the meaning and implication of the incredible movement which has only now begun to encroach into the mass and popular attention/mind. They will soon understand, as I believe the world will soon come to know what it is each one of you individually contribute to, and are now molding/shaping into what will soon be normative and common behavior and beliefs. I hope that with your help we will hasten this transformation and acceptance of what will come.

However, like many of you, I am not looking for personal glory and benefit. I simply want to aid the cause, to join this massive burgeoning movement alongside my heroes. I intend to give the credit where it is due, to spotlight to the true movement leaders and participants. I think the time has come.


I should also say that it is my intention to publish the end results of this project, both in relevant sociological journals and publications as well as the eventual publication of a book which I would like to be an open source project—written and edited by all of those who contribute. I think the technique of open sourcing is something that should be applied to all ethnographic projects—since they rely so heavily on the input and cooperation of those who serve as the subjects themselves. These “subjects” after all are the talent and deserve recognition beyond that of the lab rat!


In this way, ethnographers have only themselves benefited from the information/knowledge handed to them by the people who choose to let them study them. In the spirit of the movement which I intend to research, I would like to change this; I don’t want to pretend that I could have undertaken such a project without the essential help of those of you who will essentially carry me to the finish line. Again, feel free to comment.

Demographics, something that deeply concern most ethnographies, appear to me to be somewhat of a problem. I feel uncomfortable asking these questions to you as I want to maintain the anonymity of all who feel obliged/compelled to respond/contribute. I would love to show some diversity in the movement, that it is not as homogeneous today as it once was. However, demographic questions are less important to me in the end.

What is of interest to me, or an area where I would like to begin is to attempt to define a social movement, cohesion, and cooperative commitment to a set of shared ideals, political and ideological identity.

I would like to hear from all of the various contributors to this movement, both big and small, from the hackers, crackers, rippers, couriers, etc. Should you decide to respond to my call for help, please specify your particular place/position or function.

1. What exactly do you do to contribute to this revolutionary and seemingly unstoppable social movement? How do you participate? Again, I am interested in all contributions.
2. Why? What are your political or personal incentives?
3. Do you feel as though you are part of a social movement, a body of people who share your political and Personal aspirations and possibly goals/visions of the future?

Brother of the struggle & Zearle,
Z2

Edited by digitaldawgs, 17 December 2006 - 08:10 PM.

[BigBrother]

I'll help with what I can
bigbrother1984 {at} cox.net
Keep up the good music man.

[digitaldawgs]

Bump and I need a couple you cats to help!
Z

[Seal]

I emailed ya too the other night (I was the one with the attached PDF.)
Here's hoping for lots of submissions!

[alienbinary]

Zearle,

It's an honor man. My buddy Nemisis first played that song for me and it blew my mind. We were driving around, and wouldn't you know, I was wardriving, discussing the culture and where it's going. So, what do I see as the direction hackers are taking the world? It's simple. Keeping a balance. We've all heard the phrase "you can make it, we can hack it." But these days, we face some insurmountable odds. RFID threatens to take away all personal freedom, the threat of operating systems built with intentional vulnerabilities for law enforcement to come and go as they please and the new era of the expansion of the federal pen registry is just a small list of challenges we face.

Bloggers are being arrested for excercising their first ammendment rights. Websites that share knowledge like the old BBSs are considered traders of illicit knowledge. People can't hide anymore online. So what's our job? We have to be always on top of things. If they want to sweep our computers, track our files, we have to send out decoys. If they want to read our email messages with the intent of picking out "terrorist" patterns, it's our job to have signatures with trigger words in them. If they want to force RFID on people, we need to offer means to obfuscate and protect RFID data.

The widespread use of technology has left a new wake of robber barons with the richer getting richer and the poorer getting poorer. Big business thrives off of countries where the technology to make the medicine or learn the things they need to survive is scarce, so they can sell their wares at top dollar, maximizing misery and profit margin. As a response, the hacker community has developed multiple open source projects to bring affordable, durable, wifi enabled laptops to countries in poverty to bridge the lack of education. Hackers are writing open source code to make sure no one gets left behind.

Another problem we face is the enlsavement of people to machines they don't understand. Too many people spend all day in the cubicle, pecking away at a computer screen they don't understand. In another thread on this forum, I posted a series of images of kiosks and other digital assistants gone wrong, and the confusion that happens when these don't work the way the masses expect. We have a society where in order to get anywhere at all, you must have a computer. In order to obtain a computer, you must have a job. In order to have a job, you need experience with computers. So how to books fly off the shelves. People maximize on the naiivety of others. The hacker's job here is to teach those who don't understand the box. We show them the full extent they can use these machines. Turn their silicon chains into tools to fight the system they're so heavily entrenched in. When workers at an office understand how a blackberry works, maybe they don't have to be tied to them like dog collars. If the employees are smarter than the employers, then a true meritocracy can emerge.

Just a few thoughts.

- alienbinary
PA1N Magazine, EIC
alienbinary@pa1n.org

[verbal]

i appreciate the efforts you're putting in. let me know if you need anything.

verbal [at] smashedstacks [dot] net

[tiocsti]

deleted.

Edited by tiocsti, 08 December 2007 - 01:32 AM.

[B0rg]

Piracy, when not for proffits, is all about sharing!

[tiocsti]

deleted.

Edited by tiocsti, 08 December 2007 - 01:31 AM.

[B0rg]

Sharing something you didn't create, and according to the law anyways, is not yours to share. This is not the equivilant as sharing something you created, and I don't think it would be a good thing if open source became the moral equivalent of piracy.

The thing is I don't consider it to be morally wrong at all. I do consider trying to avoid some one sharing something that can benefict society in general in any away to be morally wrong.
The only difference I see between open source and closed source is not the one you mention but a difference between the content authors on one side and another. Open source creators share, closed source/proprieatary/paid content creators do not and fight that sharing. That's the difference I see.

Anyway, this discussion doesn't seem apropriate in here. This is my opinion and nothing more than that. It is open to discussion if you feel the need for it, on some place probably more apropriate for it.


Cheers