Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Is the 'split' of our beloved intarweb here?


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#21 Rightcoast

Rightcoast

    mmm ... donuts

  • Agents of the Revolution
  • 2,074 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:321

Posted 15 November 2005 - 01:10 PM

Ok, I read up on this this morning, and perhaps someone with a better grasp on peering arangements and how the core root system works could explain something I don't know.

Would a multiple root system work well? If so, what are the risks to US interests to allow that, both fiscally, and as far as national security would be concerned. Those are the only two reasons I can think of the US govt is holding on so tightly. On the issue of the possibility of increased internet censorship due to areas like Iran, North Korea, China etc being able to censor their own root... Is that a real possibility and one likely to affect the rest of the world, or a red herring?

#22 EncinoMan

EncinoMan

    SUP3R 31337

  • Members
  • 168 posts

Posted 15 November 2005 - 01:35 PM

Ok, I read up on this this morning, and perhaps someone with a better grasp on peering arangements and how the core root system works could explain something I don't know.

Would a multiple root system work well? If so, what are the risks to US interests to allow that, both fiscally, and as far as national security would be concerned. Those are the only two reasons I can think of the US govt is holding on so tightly. On the issue of the possibility of increased internet censorship due to areas like Iran, North Korea, China etc being able to censor their own root... Is that a real possibility and one likely to affect the rest of the world, or a red herring?

View Post


If you live in the US , there is nothing at all to worry about as a citizen. US companies might loose money becuase there might be less business going on for a short term but this is unlikely.

As for the EU, this will entain creating a new infrastructure for thier servers which is going to prove to be costly. It will hurt them the most becuase they rely on the US .

China just wants a say in something they cant control from beyond thier borders. This is a bad idea becuase after all, its China.

As for the UN. i am not exactly sure they know how the internet works. If they did, this whole thing would be a non-issue since ICANN is doing a great job keeping everyone happy. It would be nice if the UN secretary general ( Kofi Annan) would open up a browser or give an email address just so we know that he is on the same page as everyone else. Somehow i doubt this.

#23 tehbizz

tehbizz

    Progenitor of noob slaying

  • Members
  • 2,039 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 November 2005 - 02:27 PM

Annan's email is probably kannan@un.org or something close to that, what a hard thing to figure out ;).

EU won't have to really rebuild much considering they do RUN some of the root servers (the EU runs i.root-servers.org, parts of f.root-servers.org, k.root-servers.org, and half of m.root-servers.org), they do not control the root zone file however.

As for not being affected by this because you live in the US, are you living under a rock? If the 'net splits, almost any US run .com/.org/.net/etc could be subverted to another site as denote in my initial post on this subject. I guess that's a fathomable loss you're saying is "okay" for US businesses to take?

#24 EncinoMan

EncinoMan

    SUP3R 31337

  • Members
  • 168 posts

Posted 15 November 2005 - 02:54 PM

Annan's email is probably kannan@un.org or something close to that, what a hard thing to figure out ;).

EU won't have to really rebuild much considering they do RUN some of the root servers (the EU runs i.root-servers.org, parts of f.root-servers.org, k.root-servers.org, and half of m.root-servers.org), they do not control the root zone file however. 

As for not being affected by this because you live in the US, are you living under a rock?  If the 'net splits, almost any US run .com/.org/.net/etc could be subverted to another site as denote in my initial post on this subject.  I guess that's a fathomable loss you're saying is "okay" for US businesses to take?

View Post


Why dont you just read the update on slashdot. They basically say what I said. In addition to that , I asked about 5 of my family members at Lucent what would happen and they said nothing.


"As for not being affected by this because you live in the US, are you living under a rock? If the 'net splits, almost any US run .com/.org/.net/etc could be subverted to another site as denote in my initial post on this subject. I guess that's a fathomable loss you're saying is "okay" for US businesses to take?"


Yea, this only works for a country like the EU trying to get into a server based in the US. There is no difference now. If I want to go to Google in Germany I just add on de . Again, its not the EU. The EU is almost sort of a middleman. Its China and Iran that are the threats.

Edited by EncinoMan, 15 November 2005 - 02:57 PM.


#25 tehbizz

tehbizz

    Progenitor of noob slaying

  • Members
  • 2,039 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 November 2005 - 03:28 PM

Oh yes, /. is the end all of purely factual and accurate information. If you believe anything on /., I'll give you a good +1 naivete.

If you're saying that it would only affect requests coming into the US, just how do you expect them to inspect every single request and filter it properly for every single request made every nanosecond? Sure, it's doable now and it works rather well however it is not functioning on the plane of an entire continent.

If there was a split, there'd be two sets of root zone files, neither distinguishable from the other and no differention in protocols, just how would everything get sent to the right place? What about those users using proxies (or heaven forbid, a state-controlled parent proxy)?

#26 EncinoMan

EncinoMan

    SUP3R 31337

  • Members
  • 168 posts

Posted 15 November 2005 - 03:35 PM

Oh yes, /. is the end all of purely factual and accurate information.  If you believe anything on /., I'll give you a good +1 naivete.

If you're saying that it would only affect requests coming into the US, just how do you expect them to inspect every single request and filter it properly for every single request made every nanosecond?  Sure, it's doable now and it works rather well however it is not functioning on the plane of an entire continent.

If there was a split, there'd be two sets of root zone files, neither distinguishable from the other and no differention in protocols, just how would everything get sent to the right place?  What about those users using proxies (or heaven forbid, a state-controlled parent proxy)?

View Post



Alright , but thats not the point, of course there is going to be hurdles and I did not make that clear, sorry. I agree that it would be a mess but I am not paranoid about that. I am paranoid that people want to censor everyone else. I mean, lately everyone has been bashing the US when it comes to censorship and to certain extent we deserve it, but we do not censor our network nearly as much as parts of the EU or China. The point is , do we want to maintain our own network or are we going to let the UN overlords "fix" something that was never broken.

#27 mason4300

mason4300

    I broke 10 posts and all I got was this lousy title!

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 15 November 2005 - 04:50 PM

...

Edited by mason4300, 16 November 2005 - 07:39 PM.


#28 sazzer

sazzer

    elite

  • Members
  • 121 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 16 November 2005 - 04:14 AM

If there was a split, there'd be two sets of root zone files, neither distinguishable from the other and no differention in protocols, just how would everything get sent to the right place?  What about those users using proxies (or heaven forbid, a state-controlled parent proxy)?

View Post

Here's an interesting one to contemplate. What will happen to everybody using the Tor network via Privoxy?
Privoxy uses Tor to evaluate DNS requests, which means that if a net-split were to happen that you can never guarantee which part of the split you're Tor endpoint will be on for evaluating DNS. As such, it would be very possible to switch endpoints mid-session and suddenly get sent to a different site. Imagine how incredably annoying it would be if you were posting to here via Tor, and the request after you pressed the "Add Reply" button was after an endpoint change, and instead of evaluating to here you instead get sent somewhere else.


Next. Someone said that it wouldn't have a huge bearing on US business if this happened, because the US internet would still work the same as before. I hate to break it to you, but the majority of the world is actually outside of the US. Imagine what would happen to - for example - Amazon if suddenly their domans didn't work in the EU. I've no clue as to figures, but I expect that a large chunk of their sales are from the EU. I'd even go so far as to say that they have more sales from ourside the US than from inside it, but that's just speculation on my part. If I'm accurate then it would mean a 50%+ drop in sales for them, and that is going to hurt a hell of a lot.


Finally - I'm totally appalled at the way this thread has gone. One of the main things I'm seeing in here is the US and the EU camps hurling abuse at each other, and with no real reason. If a net-split does happen then it is likely to hurt everybody, the world over. Users in the US might well notice it less because things probably wouldn't change there. Business in the US will certainly notice it. Both users and business outside the US will certainly notice it as well. There are also quite a few ways that users in the US will notice it too. For example, as has been suggested at before here, I run a free UO shard in my spare time. That's hosted on a UK server, with the domain purchased from a UK registrar. If this DNS was to vanish off of the US DNS system then nobody over there would be able to connect to my shard to play UO. This is only a very small example, but it's a real life one that I know the consequences of first-hand. There are going to be hundreds, if not thousands of other examples of hugely varying scales that follow the same pattern.


Apologies if this rant got out of control. I've tried to control it a bit but it's just ridiculous how this topic seems to be going.

#29 Binary Hobo

Binary Hobo

    SCRiPT KiDDie

  • Members
  • 28 posts

Posted 16 November 2005 - 08:31 AM

As far as Im concerned, the Europeans can kiss my fucking ass. The internet was an American invention, and is still an American thing. If some stupid asses across the ocean want their own internet, fine, but they sure as hell shouldnt be allowed to control anything that the U.S. uses.

View Post


And yet somehow it's okay for the US to control something they use?

Grow up dude. The world doesn't work like that. The United States of America are not entitled to regulate the rest of the world. And so what if the internet was invented in america? The entire point of a globalized society is that countries share goods and ideas, not act like nationalist assholes and try to lord their invention over the rest of the world.

So I guess what I'm trying to say, is that YOU can "kiss my fucking ass".

#30 tehbizz

tehbizz

    Progenitor of noob slaying

  • Members
  • 2,039 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 November 2005 - 01:10 PM

Sazzer is one of the few who replied that's actually trying to think about this logically and hit on many points I was trying to make.

When I brought up proxy users, I was thinking directly of those who use TOR, myself included.

I was trying to make a pertinent and intelligent thread but I guess I was wishfully thinking.

MODS: Please close this thread to avoid further undue flaming.

Edited by tehbizz, 16 November 2005 - 01:11 PM.


#31 Rightcoast

Rightcoast

    mmm ... donuts

  • Agents of the Revolution
  • 2,074 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:321

Posted 16 November 2005 - 01:27 PM

Finally - I'm totally appalled at the way this thread has gone. One of the main things I'm seeing in here is the US and the EU camps hurling abuse at each other, and with no real reason.


/me nods.

Something I think worth pointing out. After reading a bit on this over the past day or so (yeah, I'm quite the expert now :P ) I wonder: Why wouldn't the United States relinquish some control over this? This "split" seemingly can be avoided by agreeing to work together, and share administration of these root servers. Correct me if I am wrong. Is it a "time of international conflict" worry like the worries sited spurring the creation of both GPS and Galileo? Or is this simply a byproduct of the displeasure (the majority of) the EU has expressed with US foreign policy over the past few years, spilling over into this....with the US in turn sensing that, and giving the proverbial bird, "because they can"?

Basically what I ask, and it's quite hard to find a definitive answer on this.....What is the position of the U.S. on this, why are they taking the stance they are? Even if an opposite stance can be taken as in any argument, what is the reason that can be argued *for* retaining absolute control?

Edited by Evolve, 16 November 2005 - 01:28 PM.


#32 mason4300

mason4300

    I broke 10 posts and all I got was this lousy title!

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 16 November 2005 - 04:01 PM

Here is the result. Not too bad

http://www.breitbart.../D8DTJ5UG1.html

Edited by mason4300, 16 November 2005 - 04:01 PM.


#33 Byrdturdak47

Byrdturdak47

    SCRiPT KiDDie

  • Members
  • 25 posts
  • Location:Long Island, (516) to be exact ;)

Posted 16 November 2005 - 05:41 PM

As far as Im concerned, the Europeans can kiss my fucking ass. The internet was an American invention, and is still an American thing. If some stupid asses across the ocean want their own internet, fine, but they sure as hell shouldnt be allowed to control anything that the U.S. uses.

View Post


I agree. Fuck the Euro-trash. The europeans should be more worried about their growing Islamic-problem and not about the online...

Dirty Muslims are pouring into Europe while the Europeans bury their head in shit. Sad really.

#34 Rightcoast

Rightcoast

    mmm ... donuts

  • Agents of the Revolution
  • 2,074 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:321

Posted 16 November 2005 - 05:55 PM

I just thought I would chime in. The Europeans that have posted in this thread have responded with a lot of restraint considering......

Guys, we aren't all racist assholes like my aptly handled countrymen above. Don't be baited please. My country is full of people like that, but not everyone acts like an ass. No use rubbing the noses of those who aren't morons in the shit from those who are. We can look around every day for ourselves and see the sense of entitlement and racism in our country anyways. In any case, I am fairly embarassed at the way some U.S. citizens have behaved in this thread. Don't be to harsh on the sane ones please. :D

Edited by Evolve, 16 November 2005 - 05:56 PM.


#35 mason4300

mason4300

    I broke 10 posts and all I got was this lousy title!

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 16 November 2005 - 07:37 PM

I just thought I would chime in. The Europeans that have posted in this thread have responded with a lot of restraint considering......

Guys, we aren't all racist assholes like my aptly handled countrymen above. Don't be baited please. My country is full of people like that, but not everyone acts like an ass. No use rubbing the noses of those who aren't morons in the shit from those who are. We can look around every day for ourselves and see the sense of entitlement and racism in our country anyways. In any case, I am fairly embarassed at the way some U.S. citizens have behaved in this thread. Don't be to harsh on the sane ones please. :D

View Post


Ok, I would like to apologize about everything I called anyone. I know I seemed like a dipshit, I had just got done discussing a whole ton of stuff over European crap and was still pissed. I take back everything I said that was negative. hopefully some of you are mature enough to take this apology sincerely and not just bash me more, I don't want to be an ass, and I am not always like that. I'm not a "racist asshole" or a "moron," but I agree with everything else that Evolve said, I am embarrassed by my own actions. please forgive me

by the way, I really am not a redneck <_<

Edited by mason4300, 16 November 2005 - 07:40 PM.


#36 tehbizz

tehbizz

    Progenitor of noob slaying

  • Members
  • 2,039 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 November 2005 - 11:51 PM

As far as Im concerned, the Europeans can kiss my fucking ass. The internet was an American invention, and is still an American thing. If some stupid asses across the ocean want their own internet, fine, but they sure as hell shouldnt be allowed to control anything that the U.S. uses.

View Post


I agree. Fuck the Euro-trash. The europeans should be more worried about their growing Islamic-problem and not about the online...

Dirty Muslims are pouring into Europe while the Europeans bury their head in shit. Sad really.

View Post


This is the exact reason I want this thread closed. I know when intelligent conversation comes around, no matter where you are, someone is determined to undermine it with their own fancy brand of hate.

Wish I was a mod so I could A. warn and B. edit this racist post.

#37 BlackRatchet

BlackRatchet

    Dangerous free thinker

  • Agents of the Revolution
  • 1,837 posts
  • Location:617/508

Posted 17 November 2005 - 09:41 AM

This is the exact reason I want this thread closed.  I know when intelligent conversation comes around, no matter where you are, someone is determined to undermine it with their own fancy brand of hate.

Wish I was a mod so I could A. warn and B. edit this racist post.

View Post


Jesus. I told you I wouldn't close the thread earlier. Then this morning I find you reported it to other mods.

If it wouldn't fucknut you, I would warn your ass again.

Don't like the trolls? Don't feed them. (BTW, I /do/ believe that the europeans are burying their head in the sand when it comes to the Muslim Influx)

#38 tehbizz

tehbizz

    Progenitor of noob slaying

  • Members
  • 2,039 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 November 2005 - 09:56 AM

I reported someone's post because I felt it necessary, I wasn't reporting the thread.




BinRev is hosted by the great people at Lunarpages!